1 00:00:12,250 --> 00:00:06,150 you 2 00:00:17,730 --> 00:00:15,180 [Music] 3 00:00:19,420 --> 00:00:17,740 so welcome to our opening plenary on 4 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:19,430 planetary protection 5 00:00:23,859 --> 00:00:22,130 so I'm Arielle on bar and on behalf of 6 00:00:25,269 --> 00:00:23,869 myself and Louise Proctor my partner in 7 00:00:26,670 --> 00:00:25,279 crime and organizing this session I want 8 00:00:29,620 --> 00:00:26,680 to welcome you and welcome you to 9 00:00:33,160 --> 00:00:29,630 greater Phoenix Arizona and it's really 10 00:00:34,180 --> 00:00:33,170 really exciting as a somebody who lives 11 00:00:35,710 --> 00:00:34,190 here and works here it's really exciting 12 00:00:37,270 --> 00:00:35,720 to see you all here so we're going to 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:37,280 try to do something a little different 14 00:00:41,229 --> 00:00:39,050 this morning when you hear the words 15 00:00:43,090 --> 00:00:41,239 planetary protection you don't normally 16 00:00:44,860 --> 00:00:43,100 think of fun and entertaining and 17 00:00:46,930 --> 00:00:44,870 engaging but we're going to try to do 18 00:00:48,930 --> 00:00:46,940 something that is fun and entertaining 19 00:00:51,310 --> 00:00:48,940 and engaging and a little experimental 20 00:00:53,139 --> 00:00:51,320 so we'll see if this goes well but we 21 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:53,149 think it's going to go pretty well why 22 00:00:55,780 --> 00:00:54,050 are we doing this so planetary 23 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:55,790 protection it's never been more 24 00:00:59,889 --> 00:00:58,010 important to consider because emissions 25 00:01:02,080 --> 00:00:59,899 to Europa and maybe Enceladus hopefully 26 00:01:03,850 --> 00:01:02,090 Enceladus and ever more serious planning 27 00:01:06,370 --> 00:01:03,860 from our sample return because of the 28 00:01:08,380 --> 00:01:06,380 rise of private players like SpaceX who 29 00:01:10,060 --> 00:01:08,390 want to go to other worlds and because 30 00:01:12,310 --> 00:01:10,070 of ever-increasing public interest in 31 00:01:14,170 --> 00:01:12,320 life on other words world's planetary 32 00:01:15,639 --> 00:01:14,180 protection is something that's we're 33 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:15,649 going to deal with more and more as we 34 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:19,250 move forward as we talk about planter 35 00:01:22,719 --> 00:01:20,450 protection it's really easy to get lost 36 00:01:25,300 --> 00:01:22,729 in debates over technical requirements 37 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:25,310 and history and policy and sometimes 38 00:01:30,340 --> 00:01:28,130 cost comes up as an issue too there's 39 00:01:32,890 --> 00:01:30,350 going to be plenty of opportunity to go 40 00:01:34,390 --> 00:01:32,900 into those kind of topics in the planner 41 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:34,400 protection sessions that happen later 42 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:36,290 today but this morning we want to sort 43 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:38,090 of take a step back from all those weeds 44 00:01:40,870 --> 00:01:39,530 from all that detail it's all important 45 00:01:42,819 --> 00:01:40,880 but we won't take a step back from all 46 00:01:44,140 --> 00:01:42,829 that to stimulate a community 47 00:01:46,210 --> 00:01:44,150 conversation that we hope will live on 48 00:01:47,890 --> 00:01:46,220 beyond this session and beyond this week 49 00:01:50,230 --> 00:01:47,900 and maybe get people thinking a little 50 00:01:51,730 --> 00:01:50,240 differently about the topic about why 51 00:01:53,950 --> 00:01:51,740 planter protection matters in the first 52 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:53,960 place why it's an issue that we all need 53 00:01:58,120 --> 00:01:56,210 to take seriously and to get us thinking 54 00:02:00,149 --> 00:01:58,130 of get us all thinking about why there's 55 00:02:02,350 --> 00:02:00,159 such diversity of opinion about it 56 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:02,360 because that's really the source of a 57 00:02:06,490 --> 00:02:04,490 lot of the the tension to reflect that's 58 00:02:09,190 --> 00:02:06,500 a reflect attention a reflection of so 59 00:02:10,749 --> 00:02:09,200 much diversity of opinion so to do that 60 00:02:13,150 --> 00:02:10,759 instead of giving you a history lesson 61 00:02:15,250 --> 00:02:13,160 or a detailed lesson in plantarflexion 62 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:15,260 policy or something like that we instead 63 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:16,850 turn to someone who regularly deals with 64 00:02:20,710 --> 00:02:19,010 controversial issues like this issues 65 00:02:22,119 --> 00:02:20,720 that are on one level technical and 66 00:02:24,130 --> 00:02:22,129 regulatory but that underneath that 67 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:24,140 surface are really about differences in 68 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:26,370 values and differences in perception of 69 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:29,010 risk and how that then translates into 70 00:02:34,039 --> 00:02:31,530 policy and action and so I'm pleased to 71 00:02:36,140 --> 00:02:34,049 introduce Andrew Maynard Andrew is not 72 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:36,150 an astrobiologist he's a professor in 73 00:02:39,350 --> 00:02:37,530 ASU's school for the future of 74 00:02:41,809 --> 00:02:39,360 innovation Society trained as a 75 00:02:43,610 --> 00:02:41,819 physicist at University of Cambridge but 76 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:43,620 now running the risk innovation 77 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:45,690 laboratory at ASU so he's a professional 78 00:02:49,550 --> 00:02:47,010 at dealing with these sorts of 79 00:02:51,229 --> 00:02:49,560 challenging technical values Laden 80 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:51,239 issues and he's going to lead us through 81 00:03:03,130 --> 00:02:54,530 a fun interactive and participatory 82 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:06,229 well thank you thank you for turning out 83 00:03:12,339 --> 00:03:09,090 just half 8:30 in the morning for what 84 00:03:16,460 --> 00:03:12,349 Arielle said is an experiment and an 85 00:03:18,050 --> 00:03:16,470 experimental session here so actually 86 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:18,060 let me just put up the first slide so 87 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:20,010 you probably or hopefully got the email 88 00:03:24,649 --> 00:03:22,650 last night saying come prepared to 89 00:03:27,649 --> 00:03:24,659 interact with your phone with your 90 00:03:30,020 --> 00:03:27,659 computer with your tablet many of you 91 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:30,030 probably also realize that ASU has got a 92 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:32,010 problem with its email system in that 93 00:03:36,349 --> 00:03:33,930 what should have been a really short URL 94 00:03:37,759 --> 00:03:36,359 ended up being about 200 characters long 95 00:03:39,589 --> 00:03:37,769 and probably didn't work we'll get to 96 00:03:42,110 --> 00:03:39,599 that in a minute but this is going to be 97 00:03:44,270 --> 00:03:42,120 highly interactive and it's going to be 98 00:03:46,009 --> 00:03:44,280 a session where I hope I can get you 99 00:03:47,539 --> 00:03:46,019 thinking in slightly different ways 100 00:03:49,220 --> 00:03:47,549 about some of the challenges and 101 00:03:51,319 --> 00:03:49,230 opportunities around planetary 102 00:03:53,059 --> 00:03:51,329 protection we're not here to find 103 00:03:56,809 --> 00:03:53,069 solutions but we're here to start 104 00:03:58,339 --> 00:03:56,819 thinking differently and just an absurd 105 00:03:59,809 --> 00:03:58,349 Ariel's introduction so why am i 106 00:04:01,159 --> 00:03:59,819 standing here well one reason I think 107 00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:01,169 I'm standing here is that if I make a 108 00:04:06,020 --> 00:04:03,510 real mess of this I can run away an 109 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:06,030 ariel can say it's not my fault so I'm 110 00:04:10,699 --> 00:04:08,730 the full guy here but I'm also somebody 111 00:04:13,390 --> 00:04:10,709 that has worked crossed many different 112 00:04:16,069 --> 00:04:13,400 domains I work for many years as a 113 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:16,079 physicist a lab scientists working with 114 00:04:19,879 --> 00:04:18,690 aerosol dynamics but I've also worked on 115 00:04:22,189 --> 00:04:19,889 the policy side and science 116 00:04:24,260 --> 00:04:22,199 communication side around risk and 117 00:04:26,750 --> 00:04:24,270 decision making especially in areas 118 00:04:28,159 --> 00:04:26,760 where this huge uncertainty and that's 119 00:04:30,350 --> 00:04:28,169 the perspective that I want to bring 120 00:04:32,270 --> 00:04:30,360 today to try and get you thinking as I 121 00:04:34,730 --> 00:04:32,280 said slightly differently about 122 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:34,740 planetary protection and how we can 123 00:04:39,020 --> 00:04:37,289 possibly move forward to achieve what 124 00:04:40,220 --> 00:04:39,030 are largely common goals in a very 125 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:40,230 complex area 126 00:04:46,940 --> 00:04:43,710 okay so to start with I said if you have 127 00:04:48,290 --> 00:04:46,950 a phone or a laptop or a computer now is 128 00:04:50,060 --> 00:04:48,300 the time to take it out because the 129 00:04:52,220 --> 00:04:50,070 first bit here is going to be getting 130 00:04:53,570 --> 00:04:52,230 you used to exactly how we're going to 131 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:53,580 run this we're going to be doing some 132 00:04:58,400 --> 00:04:56,610 real-time polling here and the first few 133 00:05:01,430 --> 00:04:58,410 polls and just to get you used to the 134 00:05:04,100 --> 00:05:01,440 session to the idea before we get to the 135 00:05:07,190 --> 00:05:04,110 serious stuff okay so you can join using 136 00:05:08,870 --> 00:05:07,200 text messaging SMS or you can join the 137 00:05:11,990 --> 00:05:08,880 webpage let me just show you what this 138 00:05:14,150 --> 00:05:12,000 looks like so if you want to get on to 139 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:14,160 the website instead of that 200 plus 140 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:17,490 count along web URL it's simply pull 141 00:05:24,530 --> 00:05:22,170 Evie comm slash apps icon if you go to 142 00:05:28,010 --> 00:05:24,540 that page it works well on your phones 143 00:05:30,590 --> 00:05:28,020 as well as on laptops you should come up 144 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:30,600 with a page that says this poll hasn't 145 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:33,090 started yet but you'll actually be in a 146 00:05:39,770 --> 00:05:35,930 session where you can begin to interact 147 00:05:41,990 --> 00:05:39,780 if you want to join otherwise by text 148 00:05:43,310 --> 00:05:42,000 this is this actually works really 149 00:05:46,820 --> 00:05:43,320 nicely but you've got to join the 150 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:46,830 session so you need to text apps icon to 151 00:05:50,900 --> 00:05:48,330 this number three 76 152 00:05:53,030 --> 00:05:50,910 oh seven as soon as you've done that 153 00:05:54,380 --> 00:05:53,040 actually it'll take a few seconds you 154 00:05:56,810 --> 00:05:54,390 should get a message back saying you've 155 00:05:58,460 --> 00:05:56,820 joined the session and then once you're 156 00:06:01,760 --> 00:05:58,470 there every times the question on the 157 00:06:04,370 --> 00:06:01,770 screen you can just text your reply or 158 00:06:08,030 --> 00:06:04,380 your answer to that question you'll get 159 00:06:09,950 --> 00:06:08,040 the hang of this very quickly okay so 160 00:06:11,510 --> 00:06:09,960 we're just going to try this out to make 161 00:06:13,850 --> 00:06:11,520 sure that you're actually awake and 162 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:13,860 there we go oh well people have already 163 00:06:18,770 --> 00:06:16,290 started coming in with this okay so this 164 00:06:21,530 --> 00:06:18,780 is the first simple question okay when 165 00:06:22,970 --> 00:06:21,540 you call Heart home and I love the fact 166 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:22,980 that immediately you can see who this 167 00:06:27,530 --> 00:06:25,050 crowd is because earth is there right in 168 00:06:30,550 --> 00:06:27,540 the center where else is really 169 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:30,560 interesting so either some people can't 170 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:32,370 spell or there are some really 171 00:06:38,870 --> 00:06:37,290 interesting places here there's milk oh 172 00:06:40,940 --> 00:06:38,880 yeah so I should say and this is one of 173 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:40,950 the reasons why we do this so one word 174 00:06:44,510 --> 00:06:42,810 answers only so you can see a milky 175 00:06:46,790 --> 00:06:44,520 there and then presumably there's a way 176 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:46,800 somewhere else in there so if you really 177 00:06:49,910 --> 00:06:48,570 do want to put phrases in make sure you 178 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:49,920 put dashes or something in between 179 00:06:52,730 --> 00:06:51,570 otherwise all the words will be 180 00:06:56,660 --> 00:06:52,740 separated out 181 00:06:58,970 --> 00:06:56,670 okay good so okay interesting that 182 00:07:00,620 --> 00:06:58,980 California comes a sort of close second 183 00:07:03,650 --> 00:07:00,630 behind Earth I'm not quite sure what 184 00:07:05,630 --> 00:07:03,660 that tells us okay good so you get the 185 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:05,640 idea I'm going to move on from here on 186 00:07:10,010 --> 00:07:08,130 to the next one okay next question 187 00:07:13,430 --> 00:07:10,020 absolutely just a minute let me go yep 188 00:07:16,670 --> 00:07:13,440 there's the next one okay let's try this 189 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:16,680 how long till Elon Musk establishes musk 190 00:07:21,950 --> 00:07:19,490 Ville on Mars 191 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:21,960 let's see how quickly the over my dead 192 00:07:29,210 --> 00:07:25,290 body comes up here actually it's 193 00:07:31,850 --> 00:07:29,220 surprising the consensus 20 years I'll 194 00:07:33,500 --> 00:07:31,860 give you a second longer there so I'm 195 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:33,510 glad to see very few people think it's 196 00:07:36,170 --> 00:07:34,890 going to be in the next 10 years so 197 00:07:38,170 --> 00:07:36,180 though I think either must would like to 198 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:38,180 think that maybe that's a possibility 199 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:40,890 okay but interesting that this is 200 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:43,490 something that seems to be a plausible 201 00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:46,530 future reality that within the next 20 202 00:07:50,980 --> 00:07:48,390 years maybe maybe a little bit longer 203 00:07:54,020 --> 00:07:50,990 we're going to see a private enterprise 204 00:07:59,510 --> 00:07:54,030 establishing some sort of Bayes base on 205 00:08:00,950 --> 00:07:59,520 Mars okay next one okay getting a little 206 00:08:02,690 --> 00:08:00,960 bit more relevant to this conference 207 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:02,700 what's the likelihood will discover non 208 00:08:10,310 --> 00:08:06,110 liar earth life in the solar system 209 00:08:11,690 --> 00:08:10,320 there's a few dirty years there that's a 210 00:08:13,550 --> 00:08:11,700 few zeroes as well 211 00:08:15,550 --> 00:08:13,560 interesting so so the beauty of this and 212 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:15,560 I should have said this is anonymous so 213 00:08:19,970 --> 00:08:18,330 you can actually express your real self 214 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:19,980 here rather than the self you feel you 215 00:08:24,860 --> 00:08:22,410 have to express to your neighbors and 216 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:24,870 get away with it but yes not 217 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:26,850 surprisingly most of you think that this 218 00:08:31,730 --> 00:08:29,370 is a a possibility I'm interested in the 219 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:31,740 zeroes are unlikely is here yeah that's 220 00:08:37,670 --> 00:08:34,710 a conversation for coffee I think okay 221 00:08:39,350 --> 00:08:37,680 moving on and what words capture the 222 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:39,360 purpose and goal of space exploration 223 00:08:44,870 --> 00:08:42,930 again one-word answers or if you do have 224 00:08:48,290 --> 00:08:44,880 to have a phrase put dashes or something 225 00:08:56,630 --> 00:08:48,300 there here we go curiosity knowledge 226 00:08:58,430 --> 00:08:56,640 discovery great longevity wonder I love 227 00:09:00,470 --> 00:08:58,440 this because it really gives a beautiful 228 00:09:03,860 --> 00:09:00,480 snapshot of how people are thinking 229 00:09:05,940 --> 00:09:03,870 positively and in excited way about what 230 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:05,950 the possibilities and what the purposes 231 00:09:10,050 --> 00:09:08,410 yeah not surprisingly curiosity and 232 00:09:12,420 --> 00:09:10,060 discovery they're out front 233 00:09:13,710 --> 00:09:12,430 knowledge philosophy cures is a really 234 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:13,720 interesting one aliens 235 00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:19,450 adventure life ET i like ET and just 236 00:09:23,010 --> 00:09:20,740 give you a second with that because this 237 00:09:24,750 --> 00:09:23,020 really begins to sort of capture how 238 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:24,760 you're thinking and where your 239 00:09:29,370 --> 00:09:27,330 aspirations and your goals are here 240 00:09:32,940 --> 00:09:29,380 survival is an interesting one as well 241 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:32,950 actually and i love that we got a french 242 00:09:42,930 --> 00:09:40,170 curiosity as well in there okay then 243 00:09:47,820 --> 00:09:42,940 okay that's great i'm gonna move on to 244 00:09:50,250 --> 00:09:47,830 the next one okay now getting into risk 245 00:09:52,590 --> 00:09:50,260 so going from excitement to something a 246 00:10:01,830 --> 00:09:52,600 little more dour what comes to mind when 247 00:10:15,900 --> 00:10:01,840 you think I knew I could rely on this 248 00:10:21,890 --> 00:10:15,910 audience danger Trump there and it's not 249 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:21,900 going away I'll give you a second longer 250 00:10:26,340 --> 00:10:24,250 just in case anybody wants to get rid of 251 00:10:28,410 --> 00:10:26,350 the Trump I don't think you will it's 252 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:28,420 still oh well that's fun there as well 253 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:30,130 I've gone now there was a little bit of 254 00:10:35,460 --> 00:10:32,730 fun right in the middle of Trump their 255 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:35,470 failure reward uncertainty opportunity 256 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:38,730 yeah so actually slightly more serious I 257 00:10:42,660 --> 00:10:41,410 you've got all the downsides of risk 258 00:10:47,610 --> 00:10:42,670 here but then you've got a few things 259 00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:47,620 like opportunity in there necessary what 260 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:50,800 else got and bad things yeah but I 261 00:10:54,270 --> 00:10:52,450 believe there are one or two things 262 00:10:55,890 --> 00:10:54,280 there which aren't necessarily negative 263 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:55,900 and this is going to be really important 264 00:10:59,370 --> 00:10:57,610 as we start thinking slightly 265 00:11:01,590 --> 00:10:59,380 differently about risk risk isn't always 266 00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:01,600 about the bad but it's about how you 267 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:03,910 actually get to where you want to be but 268 00:11:07,449 --> 00:11:06,010 still danger Trump death or in the 269 00:11:11,499 --> 00:11:07,459 center 270 00:11:12,970 --> 00:11:11,509 okay and more serious still what comes 271 00:11:19,090 --> 00:11:12,980 to mind when you think of planetary 272 00:11:20,470 --> 00:11:19,100 protection management cost this is where 273 00:11:24,669 --> 00:11:20,480 it's really important that this is 274 00:11:27,749 --> 00:11:24,679 anonymous contamination yes as you would 275 00:11:32,769 --> 00:11:27,759 expect musk is there tedious difficult 276 00:11:35,669 --> 00:11:32,779 controversial problem over board wisdom 277 00:11:39,009 --> 00:11:35,679 non contamination yes sustainability 278 00:11:42,939 --> 00:11:39,019 pre-emptive strike the cafe is up there 279 00:11:45,189 --> 00:11:42,949 it has I give you second longer on that 280 00:11:47,230 --> 00:11:45,199 but this is the safety in contamination 281 00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:47,240 so this is really helpful to me because 282 00:11:51,970 --> 00:11:50,240 it gives me a sense of where the rooms 283 00:11:54,249 --> 00:11:51,980 thinking is when you begin to think 284 00:11:57,910 --> 00:11:54,259 instinctively about planetary protection 285 00:12:00,309 --> 00:11:57,920 and how you feel about it and very clear 286 00:12:03,129 --> 00:12:00,319 here there are these fears or these 287 00:12:05,439 --> 00:12:03,139 concerns or these these thinking around 288 00:12:06,819 --> 00:12:05,449 contamination and safety and then some 289 00:12:08,980 --> 00:12:06,829 of the other things that come in like 290 00:12:11,169 --> 00:12:08,990 the oh the word overboard for instance I 291 00:12:12,999 --> 00:12:11,179 think from what I understand of this 292 00:12:14,799 --> 00:12:13,009 area and the communities there are 293 00:12:16,389 --> 00:12:14,809 different ways of thinking about this 294 00:12:18,429 --> 00:12:16,399 and this is what makes it such an 295 00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:18,439 interesting complex sometimes 296 00:12:22,269 --> 00:12:20,480 controversial area but nevertheless very 297 00:12:25,239 --> 00:12:22,279 very important as that big word 298 00:12:27,789 --> 00:12:25,249 contamination says okay this is great so 299 00:12:29,889 --> 00:12:27,799 obviously the system is working at least 300 00:12:33,970 --> 00:12:29,899 it's working for at least 250 of you 301 00:12:36,309 --> 00:12:33,980 which i think is good enough so let's 302 00:12:38,650 --> 00:12:36,319 move on into a little bit of the meat of 303 00:12:40,299 --> 00:12:38,660 this so that was a great start it made 304 00:12:42,489 --> 00:12:40,309 sure that you understand how the system 305 00:12:44,350 --> 00:12:42,499 works has given me a sense of where your 306 00:12:45,999 --> 00:12:44,360 thinking is it's given you a sense of 307 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:46,009 where your colleagues thinking is on 308 00:12:50,980 --> 00:12:48,110 some of these issues what I want to do 309 00:12:53,889 --> 00:12:50,990 now is I want to begin to work out how 310 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:53,899 we can frame planetary protection in a 311 00:12:59,169 --> 00:12:55,970 way that actually opens up conversations 312 00:13:01,030 --> 00:12:59,179 and helps different communities work 313 00:13:03,730 --> 00:13:01,040 together to try and understand how to 314 00:13:05,499 --> 00:13:03,740 crack what is a really complex nut so 315 00:13:07,329 --> 00:13:05,509 that we can do what we set out to do 316 00:13:09,429 --> 00:13:07,339 when it comes to space exploration but 317 00:13:11,470 --> 00:13:09,439 to do that I thought I would start off 318 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:11,480 by giving you what I called it a naive 319 00:13:16,030 --> 00:13:13,850 perspective on planetary protection here 320 00:13:18,699 --> 00:13:16,040 I should say if you haven't worked out 321 00:13:20,499 --> 00:13:18,709 I'm a Brit and the Brits when I use 322 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:20,509 words like naive I actually don't really 323 00:13:23,019 --> 00:13:20,810 be 324 00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:23,029 no naive it's just the way that we sell 325 00:13:28,810 --> 00:13:25,279 deprecated so I'm not quite as naive as 326 00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:28,820 I might I might make out on the other 327 00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:30,560 hand if you think I'm speaking at 328 00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:32,240 absolute rubbish at least I can fall 329 00:13:38,079 --> 00:13:35,510 back and say I was just naive but let me 330 00:13:39,730 --> 00:13:38,089 at least explain to you what I think 331 00:13:43,180 --> 00:13:39,740 about when I think about planetary 332 00:13:45,460 --> 00:13:43,190 protection so this to me is what the 333 00:13:47,380 --> 00:13:45,470 nature of the challenges we're sitting 334 00:13:49,540 --> 00:13:47,390 here on earth and we're sitting in a 335 00:13:53,019 --> 00:13:49,550 solar system with all sorts of other 336 00:13:54,850 --> 00:13:53,029 entities and we have lots of biological 337 00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:54,860 stuff on earth that we worried about 338 00:13:58,180 --> 00:13:56,690 taking out into the solar system but 339 00:14:00,070 --> 00:13:58,190 we're also worried about the possibility 340 00:14:02,140 --> 00:14:00,080 of biological stuff being in the solar 341 00:14:05,290 --> 00:14:02,150 system and even beyond that we might 342 00:14:07,329 --> 00:14:05,300 bring back to earth so this to me is at 343 00:14:09,130 --> 00:14:07,339 the heart of discussions around 344 00:14:11,710 --> 00:14:09,140 planetary protection why is this 345 00:14:13,329 --> 00:14:11,720 important well many reasons but some of 346 00:14:15,370 --> 00:14:13,339 the big ones are obviously and you saw 347 00:14:16,660 --> 00:14:15,380 from the word cloud contamination we 348 00:14:18,550 --> 00:14:16,670 don't want to take stuff out from earth 349 00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:18,560 out into the solar system and 350 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:21,440 contaminate other systems we've also got 351 00:14:26,290 --> 00:14:23,690 the problem of confounded science if we 352 00:14:28,180 --> 00:14:26,300 try to do science on non human or non 353 00:14:30,010 --> 00:14:28,190 earth life we really don't want to take 354 00:14:31,990 --> 00:14:30,020 our stuff out there and completely mess 355 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:32,000 the whole enterprise up but obviously 356 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:33,770 coming back the other way as well there 357 00:14:38,650 --> 00:14:35,690 are concerns about environmental harm if 358 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:38,660 we bring biological stuff but did not 359 00:14:43,090 --> 00:14:40,970 orotate originated on earth back here 360 00:14:45,970 --> 00:14:43,100 but also the possibility of human harm 361 00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:45,980 as well and still that idea of 362 00:14:49,570 --> 00:14:48,110 confounded science that if we have 363 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:49,580 contamination in the system whether 364 00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:51,050 we're going out of whether we're coming 365 00:14:57,190 --> 00:14:53,839 back it really messes up our ability to 366 00:14:59,470 --> 00:14:57,200 do good science so this is the framework 367 00:15:01,030 --> 00:14:59,480 that certainly I think about when I 368 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:01,040 think about planetary protection but 369 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:02,930 there are a lot of other contexts here 370 00:15:07,930 --> 00:15:04,910 which are important one of the context 371 00:15:09,550 --> 00:15:07,940 says why do we explore space in the 372 00:15:11,650 --> 00:15:09,560 first place why are we trying to get out 373 00:15:13,540 --> 00:15:11,660 there why we trying to do stuff and of 374 00:15:15,190 --> 00:15:13,550 course there are many reasons why we do 375 00:15:16,930 --> 00:15:15,200 that there's discovery there's new 376 00:15:19,210 --> 00:15:16,940 science that learning about ourselves 377 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:19,220 and our place in the solar system the 378 00:15:25,210 --> 00:15:22,010 galaxy the universe there's exploration 379 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:25,220 as part of that there's Fame there are 380 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:26,570 one or two people that would like to 381 00:15:30,250 --> 00:15:28,370 make their names by going out there I'm 382 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:30,260 not going to name anybody here 383 00:15:34,390 --> 00:15:33,050 there are economics believe it or not 384 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:34,400 some people think that 385 00:15:38,830 --> 00:15:36,650 maybe one day there's going to be an 386 00:15:41,830 --> 00:15:38,840 economical advantage and profit from 387 00:15:44,170 --> 00:15:41,840 space exploration but then there are 388 00:15:46,180 --> 00:15:44,180 other things which make things even more 389 00:15:46,690 --> 00:15:46,190 complex and through the ethics of what 390 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:46,700 we do 391 00:15:51,580 --> 00:15:49,250 the ethics not only of even should we go 392 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:51,590 out to other bodies in the solar system 393 00:15:56,350 --> 00:15:53,690 but how we work out what is appropriate 394 00:15:58,210 --> 00:15:56,360 and what is not there are values 395 00:16:00,190 --> 00:15:58,220 associated with that the things that we 396 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:00,200 individually and as different groups 397 00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:03,290 consider importance here and that leads 398 00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:05,990 to ideologies the things that drive what 399 00:16:10,210 --> 00:16:07,910 we think is right and what we think is 400 00:16:11,860 --> 00:16:10,220 wrong and these are necessarily right or 401 00:16:13,900 --> 00:16:11,870 wrong but they're different between 402 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:13,910 different people different communities 403 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:16,610 different organizations and then of 404 00:16:21,550 --> 00:16:18,650 course this policy there's what we've 405 00:16:24,430 --> 00:16:21,560 decided as communities as countries as a 406 00:16:26,590 --> 00:16:24,440 society as a whole in terms of what is 407 00:16:28,930 --> 00:16:26,600 appropriate and what is not and what the 408 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:28,940 guidelines are for how we do the right 409 00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:30,290 things and of course wherever you've got 410 00:16:35,290 --> 00:16:33,710 policy you've got politics perhaps not 411 00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:35,300 surprising Trump came up and actually is 412 00:16:39,460 --> 00:16:36,800 quite a good thing that Trump came up 413 00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:39,470 because there's always politics involved 414 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:41,630 with these messy decisions that involve 415 00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:44,510 people and profit and everything else 416 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:47,360 which is not just pure science and then 417 00:16:51,310 --> 00:16:49,010 of course there's a massive amount of 418 00:16:53,620 --> 00:16:51,320 uncertainty from a risk perspective we 419 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:53,630 really are in a space at the moment 420 00:16:58,030 --> 00:16:55,850 where we're grappling with things that 421 00:16:59,800 --> 00:16:58,040 we really have no idea what lies in the 422 00:17:02,500 --> 00:16:59,810 future we have very few ways of actually 423 00:17:04,360 --> 00:17:02,510 working out what we're likely to find at 424 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:04,370 how we're likely to build resilience 425 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:05,930 into our systems so if we find something 426 00:17:10,540 --> 00:17:08,330 new we can manage it and of course all 427 00:17:12,579 --> 00:17:10,550 that comes down to risk so in my head 428 00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:12,589 when I think of planetary protection I 429 00:17:17,620 --> 00:17:14,720 think of this really complex messy 430 00:17:19,930 --> 00:17:17,630 landscape which is summed up by simply 431 00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:19,940 saying it's wickedly complex there are 432 00:17:25,329 --> 00:17:22,130 no silver bullets here there are no easy 433 00:17:27,010 --> 00:17:25,339 solutions to moving forward to an 434 00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:27,020 approach to planetary protection that 435 00:17:31,810 --> 00:17:29,510 works and everybody is happy with and in 436 00:17:33,580 --> 00:17:31,820 fact in the social and policy sciences 437 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:33,590 this is what we call a wicked problem 438 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:35,210 some of you may be familiar with this 439 00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:37,610 term others not so it's typically not a 440 00:17:41,410 --> 00:17:39,110 problem that's used in science and 441 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:41,420 engineering or a term that's used in 442 00:17:45,610 --> 00:17:42,770 science and engineering but a wicked 443 00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:45,620 problem is a problem without clearly 444 00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:47,510 defined solutions if I could 445 00:17:51,820 --> 00:17:50,150 worse than that a wicked problem is the 446 00:17:54,250 --> 00:17:51,830 sort of problem where as you try and 447 00:17:56,860 --> 00:17:54,260 develop and implement solutions the 448 00:17:59,020 --> 00:17:56,870 nature of the problem changes so you're 449 00:18:01,570 --> 00:17:59,030 always chasing after a moving target 450 00:18:03,430 --> 00:18:01,580 this makes wicked problems incredibly 451 00:18:05,050 --> 00:18:03,440 difficult but it doesn't mean that we 452 00:18:07,570 --> 00:18:05,060 don't address them it just means we need 453 00:18:09,940 --> 00:18:07,580 to be quite smart and sophisticated in 454 00:18:12,370 --> 00:18:09,950 how we begin to develop solutions and 455 00:18:15,250 --> 00:18:12,380 how we begin to change tack as the 456 00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:15,260 nature of the problem changes so this is 457 00:18:19,150 --> 00:18:17,270 part and parcel of one of the areas that 458 00:18:21,310 --> 00:18:19,160 I work in which is called risk 459 00:18:22,990 --> 00:18:21,320 innovation and I want to just spend a 460 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:23,000 few minutes talking about what this is 461 00:18:27,730 --> 00:18:25,010 because I think it'll help frame the 462 00:18:30,490 --> 00:18:27,740 following discussion so risk innovation 463 00:18:31,870 --> 00:18:30,500 is if actually before I tell you what 464 00:18:34,930 --> 00:18:31,880 risk innovation is let me just ask this 465 00:18:36,790 --> 00:18:34,940 question because I can riff off this is 466 00:18:39,250 --> 00:18:36,800 this yeah we are it's going to kick in 467 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:39,260 so when I mention the word innovation 468 00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:42,170 just cut up what first comes to mind in 469 00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:46,640 terms of words here new novel exciting 470 00:18:51,310 --> 00:18:49,790 scam I like that especially as you're 471 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:51,320 being hosted by what is supposed to be 472 00:18:56,890 --> 00:18:53,330 the number one university for innovation 473 00:18:58,300 --> 00:18:56,900 in the country creativity yeah those 474 00:19:01,630 --> 00:18:58,310 that delay with that slightly 475 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:01,640 embarrassed chuckle there corporatism 476 00:19:06,810 --> 00:19:04,250 exciting opportunity knowledge and usual 477 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:06,820 ASU number one in thank you it's 478 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:11,090 buzzword call yes leap else we have 479 00:19:19,780 --> 00:19:13,250 implementation musk again musk appears 480 00:19:21,490 --> 00:19:19,790 on all of these okay great so a lot of 481 00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:21,500 actually a lot of positive words there 482 00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:23,630 about innovation but this idea of 483 00:19:29,650 --> 00:19:26,480 creativity and you is there as well so 484 00:19:32,410 --> 00:19:29,660 the reason I ask this and to lead into 485 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:32,420 this idea of risk innovation is when it 486 00:19:38,620 --> 00:19:35,210 comes to risk we tend not to be creative 487 00:19:40,330 --> 00:19:38,630 we tend not to think in new ways in fact 488 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:40,340 most of the thinking about risk 489 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:43,370 assessment risk analysis risk management 490 00:19:49,750 --> 00:19:46,370 no matter what field you look at is very 491 00:19:52,210 --> 00:19:49,760 very conservative and most of it this 492 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:52,220 has worked well in a world which has 493 00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:54,290 been largely predictive we've been able 494 00:19:58,720 --> 00:19:56,510 to sort of work out how we come up with 495 00:20:00,580 --> 00:19:58,730 models for assessing risk in a world 496 00:20:03,610 --> 00:20:00,590 which is largely invariant 497 00:20:05,409 --> 00:20:03,620 these approaches to risk do not work in 498 00:20:09,310 --> 00:20:05,419 a world where things are changing 499 00:20:10,749 --> 00:20:09,320 rapidly and very uncertain so one of the 500 00:20:12,580 --> 00:20:10,759 things that we set out to do in my 501 00:20:15,549 --> 00:20:12,590 Center the risk Innovation Lab is to ask 502 00:20:17,619 --> 00:20:15,559 how can we bring the mindset of the 503 00:20:19,330 --> 00:20:17,629 innovator the entrepreneur to thinking 504 00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:19,340 about risk how can we bring creativity 505 00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:21,110 into the process of thinking about risk 506 00:20:25,509 --> 00:20:23,360 and see whether we can approach risk in 507 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:25,519 new ways which actually help us find 508 00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:28,970 solutions to complex wicked problems and 509 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:30,559 I'm not going to say too much about the 510 00:20:34,509 --> 00:20:32,450 actual work we're doing there but I am 511 00:20:36,249 --> 00:20:34,519 going to talk about three things that 512 00:20:39,249 --> 00:20:36,259 come out of this sort of thinking about 513 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:39,259 risk there are three very very simple 514 00:20:43,659 --> 00:20:41,210 things but the first thing is this idea 515 00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:43,669 of thinking about risk as a medium to be 516 00:20:48,580 --> 00:20:45,679 traveled through not thinking about risk 517 00:20:50,769 --> 00:20:48,590 is something that's bad to be removed or 518 00:20:52,419 --> 00:20:50,779 something that has to be managed but 519 00:20:54,669 --> 00:20:52,429 thinking of risk that's something that's 520 00:20:57,220 --> 00:20:54,679 necessary so effectively something like 521 00:20:59,830 --> 00:20:57,230 this you're here at the moment you want 522 00:21:02,289 --> 00:20:59,840 to be somewhere else the only way you 523 00:21:06,539 --> 00:21:02,299 can get to where you want to be is to 524 00:21:09,399 --> 00:21:06,549 move through this medium of risk this is 525 00:21:11,230 --> 00:21:09,409 simple it's obvious but it's not how we 526 00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:11,240 usually think about risk because this 527 00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:13,220 says that there's always going to be 528 00:21:17,529 --> 00:21:15,529 risk in everything we do in fact one of 529 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:17,539 the things I tell my students is the 530 00:21:22,869 --> 00:21:19,970 only way to get rid of risk altogether 531 00:21:24,549 --> 00:21:22,879 is to be dead and it's not a 532 00:21:27,159 --> 00:21:24,559 particularly good solution to any 533 00:21:29,470 --> 00:21:27,169 problem so somehow we've got to get into 534 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:29,480 the mindset where we actually think 535 00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:31,610 about moving through the sea of risk and 536 00:21:34,930 --> 00:21:33,470 trying to work out which risks are the 537 00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:34,940 ones that we want to grapple with how 538 00:21:38,350 --> 00:21:36,710 are we going to trade-off those risks 539 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:38,360 against the benefits that we're going to 540 00:21:43,859 --> 00:21:40,610 receive what we cannot afford to do is 541 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:43,869 try and get risk rid of risk altogether 542 00:21:48,730 --> 00:21:46,129 so the second thing that comes out of 543 00:21:51,549 --> 00:21:48,740 this way of thinking is this idea of 544 00:21:53,830 --> 00:21:51,559 risk as being a threat to things of 545 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:53,840 importance to people to groups into 546 00:21:58,659 --> 00:21:56,210 organizations so we usually think about 547 00:22:01,720 --> 00:21:58,669 risk as something that'll maybe harm the 548 00:22:04,299 --> 00:22:01,730 environment or harm individual people or 549 00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:04,309 communities possibly called death those 550 00:22:08,019 --> 00:22:06,320 that all possibly lead to financial ruin 551 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:08,029 so those are three big areas we tend to 552 00:22:12,249 --> 00:22:11,330 think of risk in but risk goes way 553 00:22:14,410 --> 00:22:12,259 beyond that 554 00:22:17,770 --> 00:22:14,420 so risk can even come down to 555 00:22:20,350 --> 00:22:17,780 culture personality deeply held beliefs 556 00:22:22,930 --> 00:22:20,360 your sense of yourself your sense of 557 00:22:25,150 --> 00:22:22,940 identity these are things that deeply 558 00:22:27,070 --> 00:22:25,160 motivate us as individuals and as humans 559 00:22:29,140 --> 00:22:27,080 and if we don't incorporate them into 560 00:22:31,930 --> 00:22:29,150 our thinking of risk we miss something 561 00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:31,940 really important so this idea of risk 562 00:22:36,730 --> 00:22:34,310 really expands from the individual 563 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:36,740 thinking of what is it that is going to 564 00:22:41,050 --> 00:22:38,570 threaten somebody whether it's going to 565 00:22:43,150 --> 00:22:41,060 threaten their health their beliefs 566 00:22:45,970 --> 00:22:43,160 their sense of purpose and their 567 00:22:47,020 --> 00:22:45,980 identity to beyond their what is it 568 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:47,030 there's going to threaten groups 569 00:22:51,070 --> 00:22:49,310 especially groups that have got deeply 570 00:22:53,070 --> 00:22:51,080 held ideas about what is right and what 571 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:53,080 is wrong what is going to threaten 572 00:22:57,910 --> 00:22:55,730 institutions again institutions that may 573 00:22:58,780 --> 00:22:57,920 have vested interests in doing things in 574 00:23:00,880 --> 00:22:58,790 a certain way 575 00:23:03,370 --> 00:23:00,890 all of these are different aspects of 576 00:23:05,770 --> 00:23:03,380 risk and going back to our previous 577 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:05,780 slide think about moving through a sea 578 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:08,930 of risk you can't understand the nature 579 00:23:13,330 --> 00:23:11,210 that sea unless you begin to understand 580 00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:13,340 what is important to these different 581 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:15,440 groups from individuals to organizations 582 00:23:21,550 --> 00:23:17,930 what they're going to fight for and how 583 00:23:22,990 --> 00:23:21,560 you navigate around that and then the 584 00:23:25,030 --> 00:23:23,000 third thing which leads on to this is 585 00:23:27,340 --> 00:23:25,040 the idea of risk as a complex landscape 586 00:23:29,230 --> 00:23:27,350 to be moved through to reach common 587 00:23:31,890 --> 00:23:29,240 goals so this begins to tie in with 588 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:31,900 those first two points so this is a 589 00:23:35,980 --> 00:23:34,610 conceptualization of this and this is 590 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:35,990 what I think about when I think about a 591 00:23:40,060 --> 00:23:37,730 risk landscape but it's only sort of my 592 00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:40,070 own mental model but again is the idea 593 00:23:42,970 --> 00:23:41,600 that you're in one place at the moment 594 00:23:44,830 --> 00:23:42,980 you want to be somewhere else in the 595 00:23:47,770 --> 00:23:44,840 future you want to be here on the map 596 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:47,780 but to get between a and B you've got to 597 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:50,210 navigate this really complex wickedly 598 00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:52,970 complex landscape that it's got things 599 00:23:58,660 --> 00:23:56,960 in such as health environment but it's 600 00:24:01,860 --> 00:23:58,670 also got things like public opinion in 601 00:24:04,180 --> 00:24:01,870 it politics policy mission objectives 602 00:24:05,950 --> 00:24:04,190 science and what people think is the 603 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:05,960 right science versus the wrong science 604 00:24:10,660 --> 00:24:07,490 or how to do science or how not to do 605 00:24:12,430 --> 00:24:10,670 science the reason I put this up is if 606 00:24:14,740 --> 00:24:12,440 you begin to look at a wicked problem 607 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:14,750 like planetary protection you've got to 608 00:24:19,540 --> 00:24:16,490 work out what the nature of this 609 00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:19,550 landscape is and what the tools are to 610 00:24:23,110 --> 00:24:21,110 help navigate through it and actually 611 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:23,120 learn how to fill in that landscape as 612 00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:25,730 you go this is not just about protecting 613 00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:27,710 the environment or protecting human 614 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:28,240 health 615 00:24:32,580 --> 00:24:30,250 or protecting the integrity of science 616 00:24:34,290 --> 00:24:32,590 it's working out what is important to 617 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:34,300 different groups and how you can 618 00:24:40,650 --> 00:24:36,250 actually navigate around that to get to 619 00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:40,660 a set of common goals so with that I 620 00:24:44,340 --> 00:24:42,880 actually want to turn back to you and 621 00:24:46,049 --> 00:24:44,350 see whether I can get you doing a little 622 00:24:48,510 --> 00:24:46,059 bit of work here now I've given you the 623 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:48,520 risk innovation primer and we're going 624 00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:50,410 to go through a series of questions here 625 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:53,200 where I want to give get a sense from 626 00:24:57,810 --> 00:24:55,690 you of how you think about what's 627 00:24:59,220 --> 00:24:57,820 important to different groups of people 628 00:25:01,919 --> 00:24:59,230 and I'm going to start with a test 629 00:25:03,630 --> 00:25:01,929 question just so we get get a sense of 630 00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:03,640 how this is going to work so this is not 631 00:25:06,660 --> 00:25:05,110 an important question but at least it 632 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:06,670 tells me whether you're on the same page 633 00:25:13,049 --> 00:25:10,890 as me so give this a second to kick in 634 00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:13,059 it's always really worries me every time 635 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:14,950 this comes up I think has the system 636 00:25:19,530 --> 00:25:17,650 crashed here we go No so title one word 637 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:19,540 that you think captures what's most 638 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:21,850 important to kids when it comes to space 639 00:25:26,100 --> 00:25:23,890 exploration and I put one or two sort of 640 00:25:27,630 --> 00:25:26,110 seed words up there but put your own 641 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:27,640 words up and I think you've already 642 00:25:30,510 --> 00:25:29,290 worked this out but if you see a word on 643 00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:30,520 the screen that you like you can always 644 00:25:36,210 --> 00:25:33,760 duplicate it okay great so adventure 645 00:25:38,910 --> 00:25:36,220 aliens rockets Buzz Lightyear dinosaurs 646 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:38,920 astronauts possibility curiosity I love 647 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:40,690 this one aunt Leigh I might keep this 648 00:25:51,740 --> 00:25:45,510 one shiny books hands-on ethics 649 00:25:55,290 --> 00:25:52,950 okay 650 00:25:57,870 --> 00:25:55,300 let's just give that a second aliens an 651 00:26:00,870 --> 00:25:57,880 adventure or yeah I actually love wow 652 00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:00,880 yeah I love this absolutely let's give 653 00:26:05,940 --> 00:26:04,720 that a second more okay good so you get 654 00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:05,950 the idea so we're going to go through a 655 00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:07,900 sequence of these I'm not going to give 656 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:10,720 you the seed answers on the the 657 00:26:15,419 --> 00:26:13,090 following slides but in each one I want 658 00:26:19,169 --> 00:26:15,429 you to do the same thing I want you to 659 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:19,179 give me your one-word response that you 660 00:26:24,810 --> 00:26:21,970 think captures what's most important to 661 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:24,820 different groups the next one is going 662 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:27,130 to be the public what one word you think 663 00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:29,170 captures what's most important to the 664 00:26:35,530 --> 00:26:30,880 public when it comes to space 665 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:35,540 exploration money costs safe aliens 666 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:37,370 so you can begin to see what we're doing 667 00:26:42,910 --> 00:26:39,410 here I'm trying to get you to put 668 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:42,920 yourself in other people's shoes to 669 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:45,530 understand what's important to them and 670 00:26:50,410 --> 00:26:48,530 what if that is threatened they're going 671 00:26:52,450 --> 00:26:50,420 to fight against so this is a way of 672 00:26:54,850 --> 00:26:52,460 thinking about risk in terms of thinking 673 00:26:57,130 --> 00:26:54,860 about what threats people are going to 674 00:26:59,340 --> 00:26:57,140 try and resist okay 675 00:27:02,590 --> 00:26:59,350 cost money aliens or practicality 676 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:02,600 discovery and again the beauty of that 677 00:27:07,450 --> 00:27:04,850 is that I think that if you were to be 678 00:27:09,550 --> 00:27:07,460 identified with this and have your name 679 00:27:11,620 --> 00:27:09,560 associated water you put up there this 680 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:11,630 would be a very different word cloud I 681 00:27:16,090 --> 00:27:13,850 would be surprised if money and cost 682 00:27:19,030 --> 00:27:16,100 came up in quite the same prominence as 683 00:27:20,380 --> 00:27:19,040 it does here but this is interesting USA 684 00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:20,390 number one Klingons 685 00:27:26,290 --> 00:27:23,510 yeah of course taxes I'm surprised taxes 686 00:27:28,060 --> 00:27:26,300 isn't bigger actually okay good but 687 00:27:30,250 --> 00:27:28,070 you're getting the idea and this idea 688 00:27:32,530 --> 00:27:30,260 the cost of money are important here is 689 00:27:34,150 --> 00:27:32,540 going to be critical where if you're 690 00:27:36,460 --> 00:27:34,160 part of the community that is trying to 691 00:27:39,190 --> 00:27:36,470 push space exploration you need to be 692 00:27:41,050 --> 00:27:39,200 cognizant of what members of the public 693 00:27:43,270 --> 00:27:41,060 are going to be thinking about in terms 694 00:27:48,190 --> 00:27:43,280 of how they weigh the value of that to 695 00:27:49,570 --> 00:27:48,200 them okay next one politicians type one 696 00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:49,580 word that you think captures what's most 697 00:27:53,980 --> 00:27:51,470 important to politicians when it comes 698 00:27:57,610 --> 00:27:53,990 to space exploration cost and resources 699 00:27:59,230 --> 00:27:57,620 mining money money going to be the 700 00:28:06,730 --> 00:27:59,240 answer to everything here I hope not 701 00:28:08,860 --> 00:28:06,740 pork yes Texas nationalism yep economic 702 00:28:10,510 --> 00:28:08,870 success election 703 00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:10,520 yeah re-election yeah and grab 704 00:28:22,110 --> 00:28:19,380 folks yep so you again you begin to get 705 00:28:24,030 --> 00:28:22,120 the idea that if you're in the science 706 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:24,040 community and you're trying to push not 707 00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:26,290 only for certain approaches for space 708 00:28:30,690 --> 00:28:28,510 exploration but the inclusion of 709 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:30,700 thinking about planetary protection here 710 00:28:35,670 --> 00:28:33,090 and you're talking to politicians 711 00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:35,680 they're going to be listening to you and 712 00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:36,940 they're going to be thinking reelection 713 00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:41,110 votes money cost and if you seem to be 714 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:43,660 threatening any of those they're going 715 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:44,890 to create barriers for you to achieve 716 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:47,650 what you're trying to achieve so again 717 00:28:52,410 --> 00:28:49,690 it's important to understand what's 718 00:28:56,910 --> 00:28:52,420 important to them what is at risk to 719 00:28:58,890 --> 00:28:56,920 them okay next one the space industry so 720 00:29:00,630 --> 00:28:58,900 here I'm thinking about the commercial 721 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:00,640 space industry I you can interpret this 722 00:29:05,010 --> 00:29:02,770 very largely but obviously you've got 723 00:29:06,110 --> 00:29:05,020 things I SpaceX blue origins and the 724 00:29:08,940 --> 00:29:06,120 rest of them 725 00:29:11,940 --> 00:29:08,950 okay profit money maybe not surprising 726 00:29:18,420 --> 00:29:11,950 the opportunity prestige jobs contracts 727 00:29:19,890 --> 00:29:18,430 publicity reputation the reputation one 728 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:19,900 actually is an interesting one because 729 00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:22,810 of course these commercial companies are 730 00:29:27,930 --> 00:29:25,840 out there for profit but if their 731 00:29:30,570 --> 00:29:27,940 reputation is their brand this damage 732 00:29:34,170 --> 00:29:30,580 immediately their ability to create that 733 00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:34,180 profit disappears so you can begin to 734 00:29:38,540 --> 00:29:35,910 see these associations between things 735 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:38,550 discovery is that good 736 00:29:46,260 --> 00:29:44,650 penis size I like to say that it had to 737 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:46,270 come up with space exploration and 738 00:29:59,670 --> 00:29:53,370 Rockets dominance yeah okay great 739 00:30:01,440 --> 00:29:59,680 moving on okay now space engineers so 740 00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:01,450 now we're getting closer to this 741 00:30:10,250 --> 00:30:06,550 community here Fame a WoW fame success 742 00:30:15,630 --> 00:30:10,260 risk challenges technology yep 743 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:15,640 so again and this is interesting to me 744 00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:18,210 [Laughter] 745 00:30:24,990 --> 00:30:20,080 somebody's worked out how to put the 746 00:30:26,190 --> 00:30:25,000 emojis up I'm impressed but I assumed 747 00:30:27,870 --> 00:30:26,200 the rocket was actually part of 748 00:30:29,789 --> 00:30:27,880 something else okay so maybe this is 749 00:30:41,340 --> 00:30:29,799 just a replacement for a phrase on the 750 00:30:43,020 --> 00:30:41,350 other side so this is all about 751 00:30:47,190 --> 00:30:43,030 innovation I'm so glad to see we've got 752 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:47,200 an innovative cloud here but you can 753 00:30:57,570 --> 00:30:55,450 begin to understand so when we come to 754 00:30:59,460 --> 00:30:57,580 the Q&A session and the comment session 755 00:31:01,860 --> 00:30:59,470 with the person that please put the poop 756 00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:01,870 emoji up come and explain exactly what 757 00:31:07,860 --> 00:31:06,159 the relevance is okay great so now we 758 00:31:10,289 --> 00:31:07,870 know what's really important to space 759 00:31:11,940 --> 00:31:10,299 engineers which is subverting the system 760 00:31:16,919 --> 00:31:11,950 and hacking it and having a bit of farm 761 00:31:18,289 --> 00:31:16,929 strength okay how are NASA of course 762 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:18,299 this is the doubt 763 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:20,530 this is the downside of it being 764 00:31:26,490 --> 00:31:22,090 anonymous well maybe not the downside 765 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:26,500 funding success discovery great and as 766 00:31:30,510 --> 00:31:28,210 you can see again going through these 767 00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:30,520 different groups different organizations 768 00:31:35,310 --> 00:31:32,470 have got not only different priorities 769 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:35,320 but different things that are important 770 00:31:38,490 --> 00:31:36,370 enough to them that if they're 771 00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:38,500 threatened they will see that as a risk 772 00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:42,809 and a risk to be managed and avoided yep 773 00:31:49,529 --> 00:31:47,350 lots of planet lots of money funding and 774 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:49,539 discovery still front and center good 775 00:31:55,230 --> 00:31:51,130 and glad somebody has absolutely got 776 00:31:58,460 --> 00:31:55,240 NASA's mission yes space invaders and 777 00:32:01,260 --> 00:31:58,470 aliens mission yeah mission missions yep 778 00:32:02,850 --> 00:32:01,270 public opinion I'm surprised public 779 00:32:05,159 --> 00:32:02,860 opinion isn't bigger actually because 780 00:32:12,029 --> 00:32:05,169 NASA as an agency depends so critically 781 00:32:16,830 --> 00:32:12,039 on public support good ok two more of 782 00:32:18,510 --> 00:32:16,840 these to go so scientists add slowly in 783 00:32:20,130 --> 00:32:18,520 your mind you should be picking up a 784 00:32:22,260 --> 00:32:20,140 picture of where the commonalities are 785 00:32:23,789 --> 00:32:22,270 between these different groups and where 786 00:32:24,899 --> 00:32:23,799 the point of departure are because of 787 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:24,909 course where there are points of 788 00:32:29,010 --> 00:32:27,370 commonality not only are the common 789 00:32:30,060 --> 00:32:29,020 goals but there are common ways of 790 00:32:32,790 --> 00:32:30,070 actually working to get 791 00:32:34,590 --> 00:32:32,800 towards those goals okay gain knowledge 792 00:32:36,270 --> 00:32:34,600 discovery discovery as one that actually 793 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:36,280 comes up quite frequently here not 794 00:32:42,510 --> 00:32:39,450 surprisingly knowledge grants wonder 795 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:42,520 dubious I was just about to say quite a 796 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:43,810 lot of this looks like sort of what a 797 00:32:50,220 --> 00:32:46,210 kids excited about or what's important 798 00:32:56,220 --> 00:32:50,230 for kids not surprisingly facts grants 799 00:33:01,530 --> 00:32:56,230 learning dangerous dangerous great okay 800 00:33:03,060 --> 00:33:01,540 and final one bring it home what one 801 00:33:05,340 --> 00:33:03,070 word you think captures what's most 802 00:33:08,450 --> 00:33:05,350 important to astrobiologists when it 803 00:33:12,090 --> 00:33:08,460 comes to space exploration life aliens 804 00:33:22,290 --> 00:33:12,100 fame again okay hands up who wants fame 805 00:33:24,450 --> 00:33:22,300 no validation give that a second okay 806 00:33:26,010 --> 00:33:24,460 this is great so now so what is 807 00:33:29,420 --> 00:33:26,020 interesting here now you have a 808 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:29,430 divergence because this I'm assuming 809 00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:31,690 represents a large part of the people 810 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:33,310 that are in this room and what's 811 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:35,410 important to you life is front and 812 00:33:40,110 --> 00:33:37,810 center there that didn't really come up 813 00:33:41,970 --> 00:33:40,120 in any of the other groups now that 814 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:41,980 doesn't mean that life is not important 815 00:33:45,300 --> 00:33:43,090 to the other groups because I'm getting 816 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:45,310 you to try and put yourself in their 817 00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:47,530 shoes and you may get things right you 818 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:50,110 may not but clearly there is this 819 00:33:54,420 --> 00:33:52,210 disconnect here in terms of what is 820 00:33:56,490 --> 00:33:54,430 really important and where the risk 821 00:34:00,210 --> 00:33:56,500 might lie in terms of what is threatened 822 00:34:01,890 --> 00:34:00,220 and just that self-awareness is really 823 00:34:04,380 --> 00:34:01,900 helpful in trying to understand how to 824 00:34:08,580 --> 00:34:04,390 approach a complex issue like planetary 825 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:08,590 protection and work out what your role 826 00:34:12,750 --> 00:34:10,210 is here what's important to you what's 827 00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:12,760 important to you to protect and how you 828 00:34:16,860 --> 00:34:14,830 can build up alliances with other groups 829 00:34:18,420 --> 00:34:16,870 based on what's important to them and 830 00:34:20,130 --> 00:34:18,430 how you can avoid getting yourself in a 831 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:20,140 real mess because you don't realize 832 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:22,930 what's important to them okay life and 833 00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:24,490 aliens still they're cool I like the 834 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:29,710 call okay notoriety great and we can 835 00:34:32,810 --> 00:34:31,090 probably I actually have to check that 836 00:34:35,070 --> 00:34:32,820 Steve we can actually probably send 837 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:35,080 shots of these word clouds around that 838 00:34:38,330 --> 00:34:36,130 people are interested afterwards 839 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:38,340 actually think they tell us quite a lot 840 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:41,290 I'll check them first 841 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:43,570 okay so that's good so we've been 842 00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:46,810 through a process where I've given you a 843 00:34:50,909 --> 00:34:48,250 bit of an idea of how to think 844 00:34:52,740 --> 00:34:50,919 differently about risk think about 845 00:34:53,970 --> 00:34:52,750 planetary protection in terms of a 846 00:34:56,220 --> 00:34:53,980 wicked problem 847 00:34:59,190 --> 00:34:56,230 a wicked challenge that is really hard 848 00:35:00,750 --> 00:34:59,200 to get our teeth into and it involves 849 00:35:02,850 --> 00:35:00,760 many different stakeholders many 850 00:35:04,380 --> 00:35:02,860 different constituencies all of them 851 00:35:06,030 --> 00:35:04,390 with different priorities different 852 00:35:08,370 --> 00:35:06,040 things that are so important to them 853 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:08,380 that if they're threatened they would 854 00:35:14,790 --> 00:35:10,930 consider that a threat to be eliminated 855 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:14,800 or managed what I want to do now is work 856 00:35:20,370 --> 00:35:17,410 out how you move from those broad mushy 857 00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:20,380 concepts to understanding how we can 858 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:22,000 make sense of that within this 859 00:35:27,330 --> 00:35:24,850 particular community so we're going to 860 00:35:29,460 --> 00:35:27,340 open it this up to a discussion and 861 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:29,470 comment we've got actually a decent 862 00:35:32,940 --> 00:35:31,690 amount of time here there are some house 863 00:35:34,740 --> 00:35:32,950 rules here and I'm going to have a 864 00:35:38,910 --> 00:35:34,750 couple of seed questions to kick things 865 00:35:40,890 --> 00:35:38,920 off here the house rules are stick to 866 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:40,900 the question when the question up on the 867 00:35:46,380 --> 00:35:44,290 screen be brief and constructive please 868 00:35:47,730 --> 00:35:46,390 do not hog the microphone do not be one 869 00:35:49,830 --> 00:35:47,740 of these people that feels you have to 870 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:49,840 deliver your thesis at the microphone 871 00:35:53,490 --> 00:35:51,850 because there I'm sure there going to be 872 00:35:56,060 --> 00:35:53,500 other people that want to say something 873 00:35:59,040 --> 00:35:56,070 and but I want this to be a positive 874 00:36:01,710 --> 00:35:59,050 forward-looking discussion about how 875 00:36:04,230 --> 00:36:01,720 this community can move forward with 876 00:36:06,690 --> 00:36:04,240 planetary protection given all of the 877 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:06,700 different ideas and concerns and 878 00:36:11,490 --> 00:36:09,850 problems and opportunities not to solve 879 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:11,500 problems because we cannot will not 880 00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:13,090 solve problems here and in fact you 881 00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:15,070 cannot solve problems like this just by 882 00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:16,480 groupthink you actually have to have 883 00:36:22,260 --> 00:36:20,110 expertise in the mix but we can have a 884 00:36:23,970 --> 00:36:22,270 conversation around what is important 885 00:36:25,530 --> 00:36:23,980 what are common goals and how do we 886 00:36:26,010 --> 00:36:25,540 actually move together to achieve these 887 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:26,020 goals 888 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:27,490 rather than completely stymieing 889 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:30,010 ourselves so let me just start with the 890 00:36:34,620 --> 00:36:32,050 first question and as this is coming up 891 00:36:36,450 --> 00:36:34,630 there are microphones in the aisle so if 892 00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:36,460 you do have something to say so there's 893 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:38,800 comments questions questions to the 894 00:36:42,540 --> 00:36:40,450 audience answers to questions please 895 00:36:44,730 --> 00:36:42,550 come up to the mic and introduce 896 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:44,740 yourself before you launch into what is 897 00:36:49,110 --> 00:36:47,290 hopefully not your thesis statement okay 898 00:36:51,660 --> 00:36:49,120 so just to kick things off what's your 899 00:36:53,970 --> 00:36:51,670 biggest fear if we don't manage forward 900 00:36:56,339 --> 00:36:53,980 contamination effectively 901 00:36:57,809 --> 00:36:56,349 and maybe not surprisingly compromised 902 00:36:58,289 --> 00:36:57,819 science I'm going to leave that out for 903 00:37:01,140 --> 00:36:58,299 a bit 904 00:37:04,020 --> 00:37:01,150 and ask you to actually come up to the 905 00:37:07,349 --> 00:37:04,030 microphone and just begin talking about 906 00:37:10,109 --> 00:37:07,359 where your confuse our here why you have 907 00:37:13,140 --> 00:37:10,119 those fears what you think the nature of 908 00:37:14,190 --> 00:37:13,150 the problem or the challenges here it's 909 00:37:15,630 --> 00:37:14,200 always difficult getting the first 910 00:37:17,730 --> 00:37:15,640 person to come up and speak this is 911 00:37:22,589 --> 00:37:17,740 where as a lecturer I'm so tempted to 912 00:37:23,849 --> 00:37:22,599 sort of point and say you but I won't so 913 00:37:26,460 --> 00:37:23,859 we have microphones here 914 00:37:28,349 --> 00:37:26,470 oh yeah and yes thank you so if you just 915 00:37:29,309 --> 00:37:28,359 let us know who you are so at least I 916 00:37:32,549 --> 00:37:29,319 know who you are 917 00:37:36,059 --> 00:37:32,559 Helen hands ma don't you think climate 918 00:37:39,030 --> 00:37:36,069 change is an incredibly larger risk now 919 00:37:42,359 --> 00:37:39,040 on earth rather than the remote problem 920 00:37:46,589 --> 00:37:42,369 of contamination at this moment in time 921 00:37:48,780 --> 00:37:46,599 and space so I so I'm not going to give 922 00:37:50,130 --> 00:37:48,790 you an answer because I'm not the Oracle 923 00:37:51,780 --> 00:37:50,140 on this but so thank you for the 924 00:37:55,230 --> 00:37:51,790 question I would love for other people 925 00:37:56,970 --> 00:37:55,240 to respond to that interesting that I 926 00:37:59,490 --> 00:37:56,980 can't remember seeing climate change 927 00:38:01,109 --> 00:37:59,500 coming up as prominently here but what 928 00:38:03,450 --> 00:38:01,119 is so important about the question is 929 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:03,460 that it raises the issue that different 930 00:38:09,539 --> 00:38:05,410 people have different priorities and 931 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:09,549 very clearly climate change and society 932 00:38:14,339 --> 00:38:12,130 on earth not only society on earth but 933 00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:14,349 how we actually deal with disparities 934 00:38:19,230 --> 00:38:16,510 between different sections of society is 935 00:38:21,539 --> 00:38:19,240 clearly a critical a critical issue and 936 00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:21,549 a critical risk so then how do you 937 00:38:26,180 --> 00:38:23,950 balance something that is clearly so 938 00:38:28,710 --> 00:38:26,190 critical with something we're doing off 939 00:38:31,349 --> 00:38:28,720 how do you make those trade-offs between 940 00:38:34,049 --> 00:38:31,359 where we focus our attention and how we 941 00:38:37,260 --> 00:38:34,059 make decisions I would love for people's 942 00:38:38,849 --> 00:38:37,270 thoughts on that but in the meantime do 943 00:38:41,039 --> 00:38:38,859 you want my thought on that or do you 944 00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:41,049 want what I was going to say as well so 945 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:42,790 actually both will do but I should let 946 00:38:46,319 --> 00:38:44,650 you say what you want to think okay I 947 00:38:47,819 --> 00:38:46,329 think that we learn a lot about climate 948 00:38:49,799 --> 00:38:47,829 change on Earth by exploring other 949 00:38:51,359 --> 00:38:49,809 planets is my short response to that 950 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:51,369 it's not one or the other I think 951 00:38:56,069 --> 00:38:54,130 science is integrated in a way that you 952 00:38:58,319 --> 00:38:56,079 can address a lot of questions at the 953 00:39:00,510 --> 00:38:58,329 same time what I wanted to say about 954 00:39:02,789 --> 00:39:00,520 forward contamination being this big 955 00:39:05,039 --> 00:39:02,799 issue for astrobiologists is that a lot 956 00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:05,049 of the public desire for space 957 00:39:09,359 --> 00:39:06,640 exploration is to send you 958 00:39:11,609 --> 00:39:09,369 and if we send humans anywhere we will 959 00:39:14,579 --> 00:39:11,619 contaminate the planet because we are 960 00:39:16,259 --> 00:39:14,589 dead if we're sterile and so there's a 961 00:39:18,529 --> 00:39:16,269 huge conflict between trying to 962 00:39:21,479 --> 00:39:18,539 understand microbial life anywhere and 963 00:39:24,930 --> 00:39:21,489 human exploration in particular yeah 964 00:39:27,150 --> 00:39:24,940 thank you and I'd love to get comments 965 00:39:30,989 --> 00:39:27,160 on that as well so certainly from my 966 00:39:33,690 --> 00:39:30,999 perspective that is a really big value 967 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:33,700 disconnect I talk about risk you've got 968 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:36,970 the people that are really dedicated to 969 00:39:42,299 --> 00:39:40,450 getting humans on other bodies see 970 00:39:44,130 --> 00:39:42,309 people that don't like that idea because 971 00:39:46,140 --> 00:39:44,140 in contamination is a risk to their 972 00:39:49,529 --> 00:39:46,150 mission on the other hand if your 973 00:39:52,979 --> 00:39:49,539 interest is in alien life or the 974 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:52,989 evolution of life or lifelike systems in 975 00:39:58,499 --> 00:39:56,170 other systems the idea of putting humans 976 00:40:00,390 --> 00:39:58,509 on to another body is a risk to what you 977 00:40:02,249 --> 00:40:00,400 think is incredibly important so how do 978 00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:02,259 we begin to find the common ground 979 00:40:07,620 --> 00:40:05,230 between those yeah I don't think that 980 00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:07,630 there's a conflict between sending 981 00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:10,480 humans and understanding life before you 982 00:40:14,489 --> 00:40:12,910 send humans and the issue of course has 983 00:40:17,940 --> 00:40:14,499 to do with whether or not the humans are 984 00:40:20,130 --> 00:40:17,950 going into a minefield of a another 985 00:40:22,769 --> 00:40:20,140 biosphere or whether or not there's 986 00:40:26,099 --> 00:40:22,779 actually the potential for humans to 987 00:40:27,390 --> 00:40:26,109 benefit from the lack of life but if 988 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:27,400 you're going to look for something like 989 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:29,890 a mars aquifer it would be tragic to 990 00:40:34,410 --> 00:40:32,170 find that there was one there but some 991 00:40:38,579 --> 00:40:34,420 earth microbe turned it into some kind 992 00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:38,589 of a mineral and you know you lose that 993 00:40:42,660 --> 00:40:41,440 so I think both are possible but you 994 00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:42,670 know especially if you want to get into 995 00:40:47,670 --> 00:40:44,319 terraforming I mean you're going to 996 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:47,680 start making the planet change a lot but 997 00:40:51,359 --> 00:40:49,690 you don't want to be stopped by the 998 00:40:54,390 --> 00:40:51,369 microbes you took with you inadvertently 999 00:40:56,370 --> 00:40:54,400 right right like we should be a choice 1000 00:40:59,009 --> 00:40:56,380 right of course one of the challenges 1001 00:41:01,440 --> 00:40:59,019 here is with really speculating out into 1002 00:41:02,940 --> 00:41:01,450 the future and we see this with risk in 1003 00:41:04,739 --> 00:41:02,950 so many different areas we're at the 1004 00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:04,749 cutting edge how do you make decisions 1005 00:41:08,729 --> 00:41:06,640 on things that you don't know whether 1006 00:41:10,079 --> 00:41:08,739 they're going to happen or not and one 1007 00:41:11,759 --> 00:41:10,089 thing we do know is the last thing you 1008 00:41:13,229 --> 00:41:11,769 can do is do nothing because you're 1009 00:41:14,370 --> 00:41:13,239 scared of the future so then the 1010 00:41:16,529 --> 00:41:14,380 question is how do you make those 1011 00:41:17,579 --> 00:41:16,539 informed decisions but also something we 1012 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:17,589 might want to come back to in the 1013 00:41:20,950 --> 00:41:19,370 conversation because this is a calm 1014 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:20,960 sation that were having around 1015 00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:22,970 cutting-edge emerging technologies is 1016 00:41:27,790 --> 00:41:25,250 how do you build resilience into your 1017 00:41:29,890 --> 00:41:27,800 systems so when something goes wrong and 1018 00:41:31,330 --> 00:41:29,900 I can guarantee if you're actually 1019 00:41:33,340 --> 00:41:31,340 moving forward something will go wrong 1020 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:33,350 if something when something goes wrong 1021 00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:36,050 how do you have enough resilience in the 1022 00:41:40,660 --> 00:41:37,250 system so you can respond to that 1023 00:41:42,010 --> 00:41:40,670 rapidly and change course rapidly yes if 1024 00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:42,020 you can say who you are please 1025 00:41:45,190 --> 00:41:43,520 I'm Linda Billings I'm a social 1026 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:45,200 scientist working in the astrobiology 1027 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:47,210 community and when I look at compromised 1028 00:41:51,130 --> 00:41:49,730 science as the biggest fear I can 1029 00:41:53,350 --> 00:41:51,140 understand that but it's a social 1030 00:41:55,390 --> 00:41:53,360 scientist I would think that if NASA 1031 00:41:58,510 --> 00:41:55,400 were to spend five billion dollars on a 1032 00:42:00,250 --> 00:41:58,520 life detection mission to Mars and over 1033 00:42:02,020 --> 00:42:00,260 the course of analysis of the data its 1034 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:02,030 discovered that the life we've 1035 00:42:05,710 --> 00:42:03,650 discovered on Mars is actually earth 1036 00:42:09,870 --> 00:42:05,720 life then loss of public trust would 1037 00:42:13,090 --> 00:42:09,880 really shoot up yeah thank you 1038 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:13,100 next I think that climate change is a 1039 00:42:17,290 --> 00:42:14,930 reason why we should be more cautious 1040 00:42:18,340 --> 00:42:17,300 about planetary protection because when 1041 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:18,350 you look at the anthropogenic climate 1042 00:42:21,610 --> 00:42:20,330 change in human based problems like 1043 00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:21,620 that's a reason why we need to be more 1044 00:42:25,060 --> 00:42:23,510 careful with when we're exploring other 1045 00:42:26,830 --> 00:42:25,070 planets and how colonization 1046 00:42:29,020 --> 00:42:26,840 historically even from country to 1047 00:42:31,450 --> 00:42:29,030 country has backfired in our faces like 1048 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:31,460 even like on this land Native Americans 1049 00:42:35,410 --> 00:42:34,130 were oftentimes murdered from diseases 1050 00:42:37,090 --> 00:42:35,420 and that kind of thing which is a reason 1051 00:42:40,660 --> 00:42:37,100 why we should be careful and like 1052 00:42:43,180 --> 00:42:40,670 rethink our ethics and certainly I to me 1053 00:42:45,610 --> 00:42:43,190 that's a very strong narrative and I 1054 00:42:47,620 --> 00:42:45,620 can't think of any one good example 1055 00:42:51,310 --> 00:42:47,630 where colonization has been uniformly 1056 00:42:53,620 --> 00:42:51,320 good as a species it's been a history of 1057 00:42:55,150 --> 00:42:53,630 bad ideas bad mistakes that somehow 1058 00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:55,160 we've managed to bumble through and 1059 00:42:59,470 --> 00:42:57,290 actually make some sort of progress for 1060 00:43:01,510 --> 00:42:59,480 some people afterwards yeah so we don't 1061 00:43:03,310 --> 00:43:01,520 have a great track record here Margaret 1062 00:43:05,530 --> 00:43:03,320 race and SETI Institute and I work on 1063 00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:05,540 planetary protection I agree with 1064 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:07,040 everything that's been said so far and I 1065 00:43:09,910 --> 00:43:08,810 think one of the difficulties I see in 1066 00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:09,920 dealing with different audiences 1067 00:43:15,970 --> 00:43:13,310 different balance questions is the 1068 00:43:18,250 --> 00:43:15,980 problem of time we in the astrobiology 1069 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:18,260 community go from years to decades 1070 00:43:23,140 --> 00:43:20,810 decades to centuries no problem and then 1071 00:43:25,270 --> 00:43:23,150 centuries to millennia and then big time 1072 00:43:26,860 --> 00:43:25,280 and when we talk about things are 1073 00:43:28,690 --> 00:43:26,870 constantly mixing them up and when we're 1074 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:28,700 talking about trying to solve problem 1075 00:43:32,020 --> 00:43:30,290 for forward contamination or make a 1076 00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:32,030 right policy 1077 00:43:35,530 --> 00:43:33,680 how time gets left out of it and we're 1078 00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:35,540 so comfortable with dealing with this 1079 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:37,250 full range of time that we often don't 1080 00:43:41,380 --> 00:43:38,810 even stop and think about what we mean 1081 00:43:43,870 --> 00:43:41,390 ourselves great thank you 1082 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:43,880 yeah we I would like to actually come 1083 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:45,530 back to that issue of time and 1084 00:43:50,650 --> 00:43:47,810 timescales and decision making processes 1085 00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:50,660 yeah I'd say - oh sorry thank you yet 1086 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:52,730 just two seconds thank you right thank 1087 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:54,770 you I guess 1088 00:43:58,030 --> 00:43:56,330 the whole question about forward 1089 00:44:01,270 --> 00:43:58,040 contamination from a boils down the 1090 00:44:03,310 --> 00:44:01,280 question of up compromising science in 1091 00:44:05,020 --> 00:44:03,320 the context of actually identifying 1092 00:44:08,410 --> 00:44:05,030 whether life does exist elsewhere 1093 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:08,420 whether it is rich second genesis and so 1094 00:44:14,380 --> 00:44:11,090 on and the big problem in my mind is 1095 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:14,390 that it's likely that if life does exist 1096 00:44:20,410 --> 00:44:17,450 elsewhere it may well be existent in 1097 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:20,420 niches rather than widespread on the 1098 00:44:25,060 --> 00:44:22,370 surface where for example humans might 1099 00:44:29,170 --> 00:44:25,070 first go so if we for example with 1100 00:44:31,780 --> 00:44:29,180 curiosity at Mars and Mars 2020 and so 1101 00:44:33,370 --> 00:44:31,790 on shows that Mars is sterile on the 1102 00:44:35,650 --> 00:44:33,380 surface it does not mean that it is 1103 00:44:37,810 --> 00:44:35,660 sterile and the subsurface steeps deep 1104 00:44:40,990 --> 00:44:37,820 subsurface so we have to be very 1105 00:44:43,690 --> 00:44:41,000 cautious about exploration of such 1106 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:43,700 bodies and forward contamination which 1107 00:44:47,860 --> 00:44:46,130 could in fact prejudice downstream 1108 00:44:50,380 --> 00:44:47,870 science very far in the future where we 1109 00:44:53,470 --> 00:44:50,390 go deep and look for other lights and 1110 00:44:55,330 --> 00:44:53,480 other nations racial thank you so just 1111 00:44:58,090 --> 00:44:55,340 another C question if I get to this 1112 00:45:00,040 --> 00:44:58,100 gentleman and I'm playing devil's 1113 00:45:03,340 --> 00:45:00,050 advocate here because I don't believe in 1114 00:45:05,820 --> 00:45:03,350 this this argument myself but how do you 1115 00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:05,830 deal with the people that argue that 1116 00:45:10,420 --> 00:45:08,720 this is very self-indulgence of 1117 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:10,430 scientists saying you've got to leave 1118 00:45:13,810 --> 00:45:12,050 space to us because we're the only 1119 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:13,820 people that know how to work here and 1120 00:45:18,130 --> 00:45:14,930 not make a mess of it 1121 00:45:20,380 --> 00:45:18,140 so if you want to mine asteroids if you 1122 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:20,390 want to colonize Mars whatever you 1123 00:45:25,270 --> 00:45:22,210 should keep your hands off because earth 1124 00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:25,280 scientists have the first choice here 1125 00:45:29,530 --> 00:45:26,720 and we're the people that know how to do 1126 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:29,540 this so I'm channeling conversations 1127 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:31,010 that I've heard as I said I don't 1128 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:33,170 believe this but how do you counter 1129 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:35,930 arguments like that just a seed for 1130 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:38,210 further questions yes my name is Keith 1131 00:45:44,170 --> 00:45:41,450 Cowen I'm editor of gasps watch calm I'm 1132 00:45:45,610 --> 00:45:44,180 here covering this meeting so I also run 1133 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:45,620 astrobiology calm 1134 00:45:49,330 --> 00:45:46,610 I'm sitting here a little perplexed 1135 00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:49,340 because with my phone here I can tweet 1136 00:45:54,660 --> 00:45:51,710 to 400,000 people about this including 1137 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:54,670 add astrobiology what and I know the UK 1138 00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:56,690 tabloids are waiting to see what I tweet 1139 00:45:59,740 --> 00:45:58,160 so they can write about a face eating 1140 00:46:01,660 --> 00:45:59,750 Martians you can go to any other 1141 00:46:04,900 --> 00:46:01,670 audience to get A's and B's go up and 1142 00:46:06,910 --> 00:46:04,910 down here I would just offer that if you 1143 00:46:09,460 --> 00:46:06,920 feel your audience isn't understanding 1144 00:46:12,010 --> 00:46:09,470 you you have the wrong communicators and 1145 00:46:13,750 --> 00:46:12,020 if parents can tell kids wash your hands 1146 00:46:15,750 --> 00:46:13,760 before dinner put the lid back on this 1147 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:15,760 thing I mean basic aspects of 1148 00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:17,930 microbiology are not that difficult to 1149 00:46:20,590 --> 00:46:18,710 grasp 1150 00:46:22,420 --> 00:46:20,600 so again if whatever audience you're 1151 00:46:26,110 --> 00:46:22,430 worried about today is not getting your 1152 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:26,120 message you need new messages and maybe 1153 00:46:29,770 --> 00:46:28,370 that should be like I was at one of the 1154 00:46:33,100 --> 00:46:29,780 original meetings with Linda and some of 1155 00:46:34,420 --> 00:46:33,110 the others back in the sixth 1996-97 we 1156 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:34,430 had a whole group about the whole notion 1157 00:46:38,740 --> 00:46:36,410 of just explaining this to people yeah 1158 00:46:41,020 --> 00:46:38,750 and I quite frankly don't see enough of 1159 00:46:43,870 --> 00:46:41,030 that these days and you guys may know 1160 00:46:45,820 --> 00:46:43,880 the topic but he may not be he didn't 1161 00:46:48,250 --> 00:46:45,830 take that class in college talk to the 1162 00:46:50,710 --> 00:46:48,260 public so actually I let me just add to 1163 00:46:53,230 --> 00:46:50,720 that so one of the many hats I wear is 1164 00:46:55,750 --> 00:46:53,240 actually as a science communicator both 1165 00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:55,760 somebody who teaches and does it and one 1166 00:47:00,100 --> 00:46:57,760 of the fundamental principles there is 1167 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:00,110 focus on your audience not only focused 1168 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:01,610 on the audience but actually have 1169 00:47:05,380 --> 00:47:03,770 audience centric communication so you're 1170 00:47:07,510 --> 00:47:05,390 absolutely right and this ties in not 1171 00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:07,520 only with public trust but a whole range 1172 00:47:12,940 --> 00:47:10,160 of other things we can't sit here and 1173 00:47:15,070 --> 00:47:12,950 say we have the answers if you don't get 1174 00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:15,080 it you've got something wrong we've got 1175 00:47:18,970 --> 00:47:16,730 to think about how you actually build 1176 00:47:22,450 --> 00:47:18,980 those bridges and there is no one single 1177 00:47:23,860 --> 00:47:22,460 message thank you yes great I'm going to 1178 00:47:25,780 --> 00:47:23,870 go over here and then back here hi 1179 00:47:29,350 --> 00:47:25,790 name's Andrew sugar at the University of 1180 00:47:30,970 --> 00:47:29,360 Florida and as a preamble I work in the 1181 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:30,980 field of planetary protection so I've 1182 00:47:35,770 --> 00:47:34,130 received funds in the past and expect 1183 00:47:38,550 --> 00:47:35,780 and hope to receive funds in the future 1184 00:47:41,620 --> 00:47:38,560 just to be fully full disclosure here 1185 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:41,630 the cot the concept I want to convey is 1186 00:47:46,990 --> 00:47:44,770 is the term contamination because 1187 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:47,000 contamination you can have contamination 1188 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:48,770 and you can have contamination I mean it 1189 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:52,130 there's a scale there and it's not one 1190 00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:54,410 bacterium that is dispersed under the 1191 00:47:59,050 --> 00:47:57,050 terrain that I'm most worried about it 1192 00:47:59,510 --> 00:47:59,060 would be contamination that is able to 1193 00:48:02,420 --> 00:47:59,520 establish 1194 00:48:05,330 --> 00:48:02,430 itself be dispersed around the planet 1195 00:48:07,820 --> 00:48:05,340 and move well beyond the immediate 1196 00:48:10,340 --> 00:48:07,830 landing site or the immediate wheel 1197 00:48:13,550 --> 00:48:10,350 track of a rover that I think is the 1198 00:48:16,660 --> 00:48:13,560 issue so we could transfer small numbers 1199 00:48:19,490 --> 00:48:16,670 of viable bacteria onto the surface and 1200 00:48:21,740 --> 00:48:19,500 that wheel track for example is the only 1201 00:48:23,810 --> 00:48:21,750 thing that gets contaminated as an 1202 00:48:26,330 --> 00:48:23,820 example so there's small contamination 1203 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:26,340 big-10 option and the second concept is 1204 00:48:32,090 --> 00:48:29,970 that the surface of Mars is has a very 1205 00:48:35,150 --> 00:48:32,100 wide range of biocidal conditions 1206 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:35,160 biocidal factors 15 to 20 have then 1207 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:38,250 published through numbers of papers so 1208 00:48:44,330 --> 00:48:41,130 what really is the concern is if we have 1209 00:48:47,180 --> 00:48:44,340 back communities or assemblages from 1210 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:47,190 earth transported to Mars they're able 1211 00:48:52,460 --> 00:48:49,890 to survive those collection of 20 1212 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:52,470 biocidal conditions be dispersed into 1213 00:48:57,860 --> 00:48:54,770 niches that then become established I 1214 00:49:00,590 --> 00:48:57,870 just wanted to emphasize this small 1215 00:49:02,750 --> 00:49:00,600 contamination big contamination yeah no 1216 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:02,760 I really appreciate that and of course 1217 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:04,650 as part of that I mean the reason I set 1218 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:07,170 it up this way is contamination is a 1219 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:08,850 different type of problem from 1220 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:10,890 compromised science because 1221 00:49:16,370 --> 00:49:13,410 contamination usually comes to how is 1222 00:49:18,350 --> 00:49:16,380 that presence of earth-based biological 1223 00:49:20,810 --> 00:49:18,360 stuff going to compromise my mission 1224 00:49:23,210 --> 00:49:20,820 which may be nothing to do with finding 1225 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:23,220 alien life where as compromised science 1226 00:49:27,170 --> 00:49:25,410 is all about how do you prevent 1227 00:49:29,090 --> 00:49:27,180 something getting into the experiment 1228 00:49:30,890 --> 00:49:29,100 which is going to completely nullify in 1229 00:49:33,070 --> 00:49:30,900 the experiment the other thing actually 1230 00:49:36,980 --> 00:49:33,080 would struck me from those comments is 1231 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:36,990 in the world of psychology and decision 1232 00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:38,490 analysis and how people actually make 1233 00:49:43,940 --> 00:49:41,280 sense of information one of the tools we 1234 00:49:45,470 --> 00:49:43,950 use is the idea of mental Maps the idea 1235 00:49:47,300 --> 00:49:45,480 of understanding how people actually 1236 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:47,310 process information to make sense of the 1237 00:49:52,370 --> 00:49:50,850 world and this applies very very well to 1238 00:49:54,350 --> 00:49:52,380 looking at contamination some are like 1239 00:49:57,110 --> 00:49:54,360 Mars or somewhere like another body 1240 00:49:58,880 --> 00:49:57,120 where if you're not deeply steeped in 1241 00:50:02,270 --> 00:49:58,890 the science it's easy to jump to 1242 00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:02,280 conclusions that misrepresent the 1243 00:50:06,590 --> 00:50:04,710 science and where you can even go as far 1244 00:50:08,660 --> 00:50:06,600 as assuming that life is likely to 1245 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:08,670 propagate on another body in the same 1246 00:50:11,270 --> 00:50:10,290 way as it would propagate in different 1247 00:50:13,130 --> 00:50:11,280 ecosystems on 1248 00:50:15,260 --> 00:50:13,140 and one of the critical things to do 1249 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:15,270 here is make sure we have ways of both 1250 00:50:18,770 --> 00:50:16,890 understanding where there are 1251 00:50:21,530 --> 00:50:18,780 misconceptions in people's mental models 1252 00:50:24,590 --> 00:50:21,540 and understanding how to use the science 1253 00:50:27,260 --> 00:50:24,600 to reveal how things are actually likely 1254 00:50:29,630 --> 00:50:27,270 to work rather than how thing how things 1255 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:29,640 have people think things are going to 1256 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:31,890 work and that's a critical that's a 1257 00:50:35,270 --> 00:50:33,330 critical leap it actually comes back to 1258 00:50:37,730 --> 00:50:35,280 communication because we need to help 1259 00:50:40,490 --> 00:50:37,740 people understand the reality of science 1260 00:50:43,100 --> 00:50:40,500 of Earth and we need to work out where 1261 00:50:44,450 --> 00:50:43,110 people's misconceptions are here I'm 1262 00:50:48,140 --> 00:50:44,460 going to go here then we're going to go 1263 00:50:50,510 --> 00:50:48,150 over hi Stewart Butler 1264 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:50,520 I appreciate this last point because 1265 00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:53,370 it's intuitively when you think about it 1266 00:51:01,790 --> 00:50:59,810 microorganisms from Earth given the 1267 00:51:03,950 --> 00:51:01,800 extreme nature of exoplanet environments 1268 00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:03,960 it seems generically unlikely that they 1269 00:51:08,380 --> 00:51:05,520 would be able to grow exponentially in 1270 00:51:11,690 --> 00:51:08,390 an exoplanet tree environment however 1271 00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:11,700 backwood contamination intuitively seems 1272 00:51:15,470 --> 00:51:13,440 like it could be more of a risk if we 1273 00:51:18,140 --> 00:51:15,480 start mining asteroids for example and 1274 00:51:20,450 --> 00:51:18,150 there's some super super extremophiles 1275 00:51:22,910 --> 00:51:20,460 that somehow managed to make a living 1276 00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:22,920 there and that gets back to earth and 1277 00:51:28,010 --> 00:51:25,170 suddenly it has a real easy time making 1278 00:51:30,410 --> 00:51:28,020 a living in the less extreme conditions 1279 00:51:33,020 --> 00:51:30,420 on earth that seems intuitively more 1280 00:51:35,210 --> 00:51:33,030 natural a candidate for spreading 1281 00:51:38,540 --> 00:51:35,220 exponentially in sort of invading so I 1282 00:51:40,370 --> 00:51:38,550 guess backward contamination could 1283 00:51:42,980 --> 00:51:40,380 become a concern in the future as well 1284 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:42,990 and perfect segue because I'm going to 1285 00:51:46,370 --> 00:51:44,130 go on to the next question which is 1286 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:46,380 about backward contamination but just 1287 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:49,170 before I leave this slide remember this 1288 00:51:53,870 --> 00:51:51,690 because the compromised science reflects 1289 00:51:55,220 --> 00:51:53,880 this community and it's important to 1290 00:51:57,590 --> 00:51:55,230 realize there's actually quite a lot of 1291 00:51:59,540 --> 00:51:57,600 consensus here about what is important 1292 00:52:01,580 --> 00:51:59,550 here but it's also important to realize 1293 00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:01,590 that there is some diversity in 1294 00:52:06,290 --> 00:52:03,090 perspective here within this room as 1295 00:52:09,050 --> 00:52:06,300 well and it's always relevant to 1296 00:52:11,930 --> 00:52:09,060 understand the value and the validity of 1297 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:11,940 that diversity of opinion okay so while 1298 00:52:16,610 --> 00:52:14,130 we keep on taking these let's get on to 1299 00:52:20,690 --> 00:52:16,620 or segue into a backward contamination 1300 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:20,700 Sir Paul Mooney we're all descendant of 1301 00:52:32,849 --> 00:52:30,480 yes that that as far as colonization of 1302 00:52:35,970 --> 00:52:32,859 space you know America we left the 1303 00:52:39,630 --> 00:52:35,980 plaque on the moon with Apollo 11 we 1304 00:52:41,700 --> 00:52:39,640 come in peace for all mankind and that 1305 00:52:44,490 --> 00:52:41,710 should stand as a marker for a future 1306 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:44,500 right right so the one thing I would say 1307 00:52:49,170 --> 00:52:46,090 I thank you for your point which is 1308 00:52:50,820 --> 00:52:49,180 really important but there's obviously 1309 00:52:53,099 --> 00:52:50,830 difference between saying we come in 1310 00:52:54,810 --> 00:52:53,109 peace and actually not leaving a dirty 1311 00:52:58,109 --> 00:52:54,820 great footprint which we can't erase 1312 00:52:59,760 --> 00:52:58,119 afterwards hello my name is Vladimir 1313 00:53:02,070 --> 00:52:59,770 Putin NASA Goddard Space Flight Center 1314 00:53:04,230 --> 00:53:02,080 and I want to come in not just a 1315 00:53:06,030 --> 00:53:04,240 contamination but an evolution of 1316 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:06,040 contamination the point is that if we 1317 00:53:11,220 --> 00:53:08,530 bring a bacteria from other world to 1318 00:53:13,349 --> 00:53:11,230 earth because we have deep biosphere the 1319 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:13,359 biosphere means that biological 1320 00:53:18,540 --> 00:53:16,690 equilibrium said the old biological 1321 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:18,550 niches are taken they're going to kill 1322 00:53:23,190 --> 00:53:20,890 this bacteria so I don't understand the 1323 00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:23,200 contamination that cells imagine that we 1324 00:53:27,420 --> 00:53:24,640 have a biosphere on Mars 1325 00:53:29,460 --> 00:53:27,430 subsurface biosphere we bring a bacteria 1326 00:53:32,130 --> 00:53:29,470 and they just matter of time might be 1327 00:53:34,380 --> 00:53:32,140 they might be a month but if life 1328 00:53:36,690 --> 00:53:34,390 prospers on Mars they will kill bacteria 1329 00:53:39,060 --> 00:53:36,700 myth so I don't understand contamination 1330 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:39,070 so I actually like people to dig into 1331 00:53:43,310 --> 00:53:41,170 that a little bit more because this is 1332 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:43,320 where I can see tremendous uncertainty 1333 00:53:49,079 --> 00:53:46,210 especially from those that are deeply 1334 00:53:51,210 --> 00:53:49,089 familiar with the biology of extreme 1335 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:51,220 especially extremophiles but also the 1336 00:53:57,930 --> 00:53:55,690 nature of either modified DNA or non DNA 1337 00:54:00,450 --> 00:53:57,940 based life because it seems like there's 1338 00:54:02,099 --> 00:54:00,460 a huge divergence of opinion as to where 1339 00:54:03,599 --> 00:54:02,109 the alien life would actually be able to 1340 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:03,609 survive on earth because you don't have 1341 00:54:08,339 --> 00:54:06,970 those those niches or whether it would 1342 00:54:10,140 --> 00:54:08,349 dominate like an invasive species 1343 00:54:12,930 --> 00:54:10,150 because it has advantages that others 1344 00:54:15,089 --> 00:54:12,940 don't have I don't really get a sense of 1345 00:54:18,930 --> 00:54:15,099 where there is good science consensus 1346 00:54:22,859 --> 00:54:18,940 here but prove me wrong let's get it I 1347 00:54:25,050 --> 00:54:22,869 just want to point out that people 1348 00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:25,060 didn't realize that kudzu would take 1349 00:54:28,589 --> 00:54:26,800 over the entire South people didn't 1350 00:54:30,660 --> 00:54:28,599 realize that honeysuckle would take over 1351 00:54:33,300 --> 00:54:30,670 the north people didn't realize that all 1352 00:54:35,460 --> 00:54:33,310 the diseases that were brought by the 1353 00:54:38,489 --> 00:54:35,470 original colonizers 1354 00:54:40,349 --> 00:54:38,499 European colonizers of North America 1355 00:54:44,069 --> 00:54:40,359 would bring diseases that would kill the 1356 00:54:46,259 --> 00:54:44,079 native people here it's sort of I don't 1357 00:54:48,690 --> 00:54:46,269 like this argument that well we think 1358 00:54:51,180 --> 00:54:48,700 that the niches are taken up or we think 1359 00:54:53,489 --> 00:54:51,190 that the environment is too sterile and 1360 00:54:55,589 --> 00:54:53,499 Mars things can't grow there I think 1361 00:54:57,059 --> 00:54:55,599 that we need to understand that 1362 00:55:00,720 --> 00:54:57,069 sometimes scientists don't know things 1363 00:55:01,979 --> 00:55:00,730 and when we don't know we need to we 1364 00:55:04,019 --> 00:55:01,989 need to be careful because we could 1365 00:55:04,650 --> 00:55:04,029 really ruin something yeah and we've 1366 00:55:06,989 --> 00:55:04,660 done it before 1367 00:55:14,729 --> 00:55:06,999 and we might do it again so can I put 1368 00:55:16,499 --> 00:55:14,739 you on the spot and keep you up I just 1369 00:55:19,529 --> 00:55:16,509 want to ask a follow-up question to that 1370 00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:19,539 so I again you look through the history 1371 00:55:25,229 --> 00:55:22,480 of humanity and that has been a legacy 1372 00:55:26,370 --> 00:55:25,239 that we do things out of ignorance even 1373 00:55:28,829 --> 00:55:26,380 though we think we're pretty smart at 1374 00:55:30,989 --> 00:55:28,839 the time and we spend the next sort of 1375 00:55:33,210 --> 00:55:30,999 years decades centuries millennia 1376 00:55:35,999 --> 00:55:33,220 sometimes mopping up the mess afterwards 1377 00:55:37,319 --> 00:55:36,009 but we have done things and some would 1378 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:37,329 say we've actually progressed as a 1379 00:55:44,249 --> 00:55:40,930 society probably because of our mistakes 1380 00:55:46,739 --> 00:55:44,259 so how do we then find that line between 1381 00:55:48,749 --> 00:55:46,749 not doing anything because we know that 1382 00:55:50,970 --> 00:55:48,759 we're going to mess up or doing 1383 00:55:53,460 --> 00:55:50,980 something because that's the human 1384 00:55:55,859 --> 00:55:53,470 imperative anyway and I think that's a 1385 00:55:58,529 --> 00:55:55,869 question of our goal so if we're going 1386 00:56:00,299 --> 00:55:58,539 to Mars looking for Martian life if 1387 00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:00,309 we're looking for a second genesis of 1388 00:56:03,779 --> 00:56:02,559 life then we have to be very careful 1389 00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:03,789 that we don't bring any of our own 1390 00:56:07,349 --> 00:56:05,410 species there even if we think there's 1391 00:56:09,569 --> 00:56:07,359 no chance of them surviving however if 1392 00:56:11,339 --> 00:56:09,579 our goal is to terraform Mars make it 1393 00:56:13,859 --> 00:56:11,349 more like earth and make it so that we 1394 00:56:15,950 --> 00:56:13,869 can live there then I think we need to 1395 00:56:18,839 --> 00:56:15,960 basically assume that we're going to 1396 00:56:20,039 --> 00:56:18,849 we're going to be bringing our organisms 1397 00:56:22,229 --> 00:56:20,049 there we're going to make that like 1398 00:56:23,609 --> 00:56:22,239 Earth and then that's our goal we need 1399 00:56:25,019 --> 00:56:23,619 to know what our goal is I think that's 1400 00:56:26,339 --> 00:56:25,029 the most important part about it 1401 00:56:28,109 --> 00:56:26,349 thank you which i think is really 1402 00:56:29,579 --> 00:56:28,119 important and also knowing what other 1403 00:56:31,380 --> 00:56:29,589 people's goals are and how you can 1404 00:56:34,380 --> 00:56:31,390 actually find that that point of 1405 00:56:37,380 --> 00:56:34,390 convergence yes my travisano University 1406 00:56:39,029 --> 00:56:37,390 of Minnesota so following up on that 1407 00:56:40,829 --> 00:56:39,039 last one so there's been a lot of 1408 00:56:42,809 --> 00:56:40,839 efforts to investigate what the 1409 00:56:45,299 --> 00:56:42,819 properties are of invasive species here 1410 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:45,309 on earth moving them around and by and 1411 00:56:49,299 --> 00:56:47,690 large we have no general consensus 1412 00:56:51,130 --> 00:56:49,309 so that the ecologist and evolutionary 1413 00:56:54,430 --> 00:56:51,140 biologists are really challenged by it 1414 00:56:56,140 --> 00:56:54,440 what you typically see is for for things 1415 00:56:58,930 --> 00:56:56,150 that have their own primary productivity 1416 00:57:01,599 --> 00:56:58,940 to make make energy from from the Sun is 1417 00:57:04,059 --> 00:57:01,609 that they don't get eaten so they escape 1418 00:57:06,730 --> 00:57:04,069 and they're quite happy to not be eaten 1419 00:57:08,349 --> 00:57:06,740 and the things that eat things are don't 1420 00:57:09,940 --> 00:57:08,359 have it just go berserk and eat 1421 00:57:12,370 --> 00:57:09,950 everything so those are those are the 1422 00:57:14,650 --> 00:57:12,380 properties of the of the contamination 1423 00:57:17,079 --> 00:57:14,660 that have frequently been problematic 1424 00:57:18,549 --> 00:57:17,089 great thank you so this is going to be 1425 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:18,559 the last question because I have one 1426 00:57:23,380 --> 00:57:20,690 final slide we need to wrap up please 1427 00:57:26,799 --> 00:57:23,390 Lukas make Lukas mix from Harvard I 1428 00:57:29,020 --> 00:57:26,809 would say both from a risk perspective 1429 00:57:31,059 --> 00:57:29,030 and from a science perspective one of 1430 00:57:34,510 --> 00:57:31,069 the things we try and do is avoid 1431 00:57:35,950 --> 00:57:34,520 confounding variables so to my mind one 1432 00:57:38,799 --> 00:57:35,960 of the benefits of planetary protection 1433 00:57:41,020 --> 00:57:38,809 is that we save the Mars questions for 1434 00:57:42,849 --> 00:57:41,030 Mars and the earth science questions for 1435 00:57:44,890 --> 00:57:42,859 Earth because we know when the two will 1436 00:57:47,410 --> 00:57:44,900 interact it will be a less predictable 1437 00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:47,420 system than it currently is great okay 1438 00:57:51,370 --> 00:57:48,890 thank you that's a nice place to finish 1439 00:57:53,319 --> 00:57:51,380 so just try and leave this slide again I 1440 00:57:55,870 --> 00:57:53,329 think this is important just for getting 1441 00:58:00,630 --> 00:57:55,880 the feel of where opinion is here it's 1442 00:58:02,950 --> 00:58:00,640 not necessarily the ultimate opinion or 1443 00:58:05,079 --> 00:58:02,960 representing different groups but the 1444 00:58:07,599 --> 00:58:05,089 fact that environmental impacts is 1445 00:58:09,970 --> 00:58:07,609 clearly important here followed by human 1446 00:58:11,140 --> 00:58:09,980 health impact but also loss of public 1447 00:58:13,390 --> 00:58:11,150 that should save lots of public trust 1448 00:58:16,350 --> 00:58:13,400 not loss of public which would be 1449 00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:20,050 but but but the fact that it's there is 1450 00:58:24,190 --> 00:58:21,710 important but I also think it's 1451 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:24,200 important to understand why loss of 1452 00:58:29,980 --> 00:58:27,170 public trust is relevant here and it's a 1453 00:58:32,410 --> 00:58:29,990 complex question but it's partly down to 1454 00:58:34,570 --> 00:58:32,420 the legitimacy of what different 1455 00:58:36,130 --> 00:58:34,580 organizations what different groups will 1456 00:58:37,900 --> 00:58:36,140 different individuals do here because 1457 00:58:40,540 --> 00:58:37,910 ultimately everything needs to come down 1458 00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:40,550 to the legitimacy that society places on 1459 00:58:46,690 --> 00:58:43,010 it but also it's down to the fact that 1460 00:58:49,930 --> 00:58:46,700 we're all part of this society that has 1461 00:58:52,540 --> 00:58:49,940 a stake in what we do in the solar 1462 00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:52,550 system and beyond so whether you agree 1463 00:58:56,140 --> 00:58:54,650 with people or don't or whether people 1464 00:58:57,580 --> 00:58:56,150 understand the science or don't or 1465 00:58:59,410 --> 00:58:57,590 whether they understand the politics or 1466 00:59:00,600 --> 00:58:59,420 the policy or the broader conditions and 1467 00:59:03,310 --> 00:59:00,610 situations 1468 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:03,320 everybody has got some state some voice 1469 00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:05,570 in this and so it's really important 1470 00:59:09,340 --> 00:59:07,610 that we actually engage with different 1471 00:59:11,500 --> 00:59:09,350 members and sectors of the public 1472 00:59:14,290 --> 00:59:11,510 different institutions and organizations 1473 00:59:15,610 --> 00:59:14,300 if progress is going to be made so I 1474 00:59:17,470 --> 00:59:15,620 just want to wrap up but I want to wrap 1475 00:59:18,610 --> 00:59:17,480 up by going back to this question that I 1476 00:59:19,870 --> 00:59:18,620 asked you earlier again because I'm 1477 00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:19,880 intrigued to see whether there's any 1478 00:59:23,350 --> 00:59:22,250 difference so final question again what 1479 00:59:25,630 --> 00:59:23,360 comes to mind when you think of 1480 00:59:30,090 --> 00:59:25,640 planetary protection I'll give you a 1481 00:59:36,970 --> 00:59:30,100 second to respond to that glass of wine 1482 00:59:38,260 --> 00:59:36,980 spot-on so the big thing is I go back 1483 00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:38,270 through these that will be different is 1484 00:59:41,140 --> 00:59:40,130 that we've learned how to use emojis at 1485 00:59:43,870 --> 00:59:41,150 this point and we didn't know that 1486 00:59:45,250 --> 00:59:43,880 before so if you're doing that I just 1487 00:59:46,860 --> 00:59:45,260 want to wrap up by saying first of all 1488 00:59:49,900 --> 00:59:46,870 thank you for indulging me 1489 00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:49,910 it's not always easy when you have 1490 00:59:55,300 --> 00:59:52,130 somebody that isn't a deep expert in a 1491 00:59:57,460 --> 00:59:55,310 in an area come to talk but I hope that 1492 00:59:59,800 --> 00:59:57,470 this has actually stimulated some of 1493 01:00:02,290 --> 00:59:59,810 your thinking and especially stimulated 1494 01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:02,300 conversations not about people bulken 1495 01:00:05,740 --> 01:00:04,250 izing themselves into their technical 1496 01:00:07,810 --> 01:00:05,750 areas of expertise when it comes to 1497 01:00:10,420 --> 01:00:07,820 primary protection but having broader 1498 01:00:12,910 --> 01:00:10,430 conversations about what is important 1499 01:00:16,150 --> 01:00:12,920 here to you what is important to others 1500 01:00:18,730 --> 01:00:16,160 and how as communities and as a society 1501 01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:18,740 we can actually move forwards so we 1502 01:00:23,260 --> 01:00:21,530 actually do think seriously about the 1503 01:00:25,540 --> 01:00:23,270 issues around planetary protection at 1504 01:00:27,670 --> 01:00:25,550 the same time not stymieing what we 1505 01:00:28,569 --> 01:00:27,680 think is important in terms of space 1506 01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:28,579 exploration